How would they know it’s Brazilian Rosewood?

[RussellHawaii]

‘They’ being inspectors of international shipments and customs agents. I hear about not being able to ship some guitars due to CITES restrictions. But how do they know what wood it is? Isn’t it often hard to tell?
Conversely, how can one be sure a guitar is not mis-categorized and restricted from travel when it shouldn’t be?
I’m not currently trying to ship or travel with a restricted guitar, just curious.
Thanks in advance for any useful info.

[Aspiring]

Originally Posted by RussellHawaii

‘They’ being inspectors of international shipments and customs agents. I hear about not being able to ship some guitars due to CITES restrictions. But how do they know what wood it is? Isn’t it often hard to tell?
Conversely, how can one be sure a guitar is not mis-categorized and restricted from travel when it shouldn’t be?
I’m not currently trying to ship or travel with a restricted guitar, just curious.
Thanks in advance for any useful info.

I can only speak from my experience travelling with a couple of guitars across international borders on the order of 40-50 times and having had a couple guitars shipped from outside the US into the US.

For the flight / drive through the guitar never was questioned I just carried the case through the inspection without opening it or being asked.

For the imports no mention was made of the wood in any of the import paper work as far as I could tell and the instrument were packed like tanks so clearly the package was never opened to take a look.

My guess is it only becomes an issue if a particular customs inspector is very knowledgeable about this and doesn't like the way you look.

At that point I would guess it would then be on you to show that it does not violate cites regardless of whether it appears to be made of plastic or any other random material not on them to prove that it does violate it similar to auto imports or other where it is on the importer to show that the item meets all the requirements.

[Brucebubs]

If the wood is tall and tan and young and lovely it's a dead giveaway.

[The Watchman]

Originally Posted by Brucebubs

If the wood is tall and tan and young and lovely it's a dead giveaway.

Good one Brucebubs

[llew]

Originally Posted by Brucebubs

If the wood is tall and tan and young and lovely it's a dead giveaway.

Go Bruce!!!

[Tony Burns]

nice short sweet answer But :

Ive asked a competent luthier to tell me what rosewood a guitar had -
and they basically said -its to hard to tell , cant answer that question !

Because sometimes Brazilian doesnt always look like Brazilian

[sinistral]

Originally Posted by Brucebubs

If the wood is tall and tan and young and lovely it's a dead giveaway.

I hear that you can distract customs from checking out the back and sides if you remove the g-string.

[mcduffnw]

"My guess is it only becomes an issue if a particular customs inspector is very knowledgeable about this and doesn't like the way you look.

At that point I would guess it would then be on you to show that it does not violate cites regardless of whether it appears to be made of plastic or any other random material not on them to prove that it does violate it similar to auto imports or other where it is on the importer to show that the item meets all the requirements."



THIS^^^ from AGF member "Aspiring" is right on the money...

But also on shipments, and sometimes on in person carry on's, the valuation given for the guitar on the customs forms is a "tell" that gets the "knowledgeable" and "by the rule book" customs inspectors curiosity aroused...also...high end high price hard cases like Calton's, Hoffee's, Hiscox's and the like, especially with additional high end protective case covers.

Things that scream "expensive guitar in here" are a very obvious tell to/for the right...or wrong, if you will...customs folks.


duff
Be A Player...Not A Polisher

[Malcolm Kindnes]

I agree, there's no way a customs inspector will have any idea if it's Brazilian rosewood or not, we are just supposed to comply with these rules. Some people like rules and restrictions, others ignore them.

I have never done it myself but I am quite confident that if one simply ignored the regulations they would get away with it. But the policy is to frighten us into compliance. "They have the power to impound my expensive guitar" and they do, so we mostly comply.

[The Bard Rocks]

I just lost a sale of a guitar to Australia. I had been told the binding was Brazilian and passed it along to the folks I consigned it with, who in turn told the the buyer. They refused to ship it.

To me and others to whom I have shown it, knowledgeable people about tonewood, it looks, well, brown. You can't see any particular grain.
As I understand it, Brazilian is hard enough for an expert to distinguish from other rosewoods when it's on a back. When you get to bridges and fingerboards, that gets harder; But on a binding? How can anyone tell?

The problem of course is that this not a court of law and the burden of proof is on the owner, not the agent. Standing in their presence, there is no way I could ever prove the origin/species of any wood I have on any of my guitars. If they insisted mahogany was Brazilian, how would I prove otherwise while at the airport? I have never been given papers saying what wood was used by the maker and I can imagine them doubting that if they wanted.

Fortunately, they stay busy and normally have better things to do with their time. And they know if they hassle too many people their job ratings could suffer. So, I figure such a hassle is highly unlikely. But it's possible. Which is part of the reason I try to avoid such woods whenever I can. The BR binding was added by8 the builder without first running it by me.

[Sadie-f]

Oh yes, the pleasures of dealing with the United States federal government and its enforcement officials. I'm not even vaguely suggesting that the example below has any application to CITES regulated commodities .. however:

Some years ago I spent a couple of one to two weeks stints working in Bologna, Italy in a factory that made pharmaceutical packaging equipment. My colleague with whom I worked most closely offered me a large homemade dry cured salume for my trip home. I had no qualms about the actual safety of this wrt he US agricultural industrial complex.

My colleague had described the steps his family needed to take be permitted to slaughter in process meat on their small farm. Compared to US feedlot operations, it's more humane, more sustainable, and decidedly better controlled than the average meat production within the United States. Nonetheless, I also knew there was no way but this gift would be permitted to return to the United States and I warned my friend that I could not promise I would be able to get it past customs. I also assured him that I had a plan that I thought would work and he gave me this rather large and ultimately extremely tasty homemade salume.

The dodge I used was to purchase a commercially made salume in the Bologna airport which I placed right at the top of my main bag. Being as it was factory wrapped, I felt I could make a reasonable case that this seemed to me like an innocuous thing to return to the United States with. I declared it to the customs official, knowing that the item I really wanted to bring in was buried deeper in the same bag.

After confiscating that sacrificial salume, the CBP officer asked me if I had anything else in my bag and I confidently lied saying that I hadn't. He didn't go further into my bag and we enjoyed that marvelous bit of meat sparingly over the next couple of months.

Being well aware that that there was a substantial fine had I've been caught in this little subterfuge, and also that the likely downside would be simply confiscation of something precious. I was still quite pleased to accomplish this bit of smuggling. My relationship with my colleagues was certainly worth more than a bit of difficulty with a federal official, and needless to say, he was glad that I was able to. In fact, enjoy the fruit of his labors.

[tadol]

Its the same with pearl and shell products, ivory, and other materials that are covered by international restrictions - the agents are trained to look for those, and they have a reasonably good sense about what they’re looking for. That said, at least with guitars, their efforts aren’t about trying to confiscate peoples instruments - they’re trying to restrict international commerce in these materials. If you’re carrying your personal instrument, your concerns are far less than if you’re trying to ship a half dozen somewhere. And especially with bindings - there really isn’t any need to use Brazilian, so if your expecting to re-sell a guitar - especially overseas - then make sure no restricted materials are used on it. Actually seems pretty simple -

[colins]

Originally Posted by Aspiring

I can only speak from my experience travelling with a couple of guitars across international borders on the order of 40-50 times and having had a couple guitars shipped from outside the US into the US.

For the flight / drive through the guitar never was questioned I just carried the case through the inspection without opening it or being asked.

For the imports no mention was made of the wood in any of the import paper work as far as I could tell and the instrument were packed like tanks so clearly the package was never opened to take a look.

My guess is it only becomes an issue if a particular customs inspector is very knowledgeable about this and doesn't like the way you look.

At that point I would guess it would then be on you to show that it does not violate cites regardless of whether it appears to be made of plastic or any other random material not on them to prove that it does violate it similar to auto imports or other where it is on the importer to show that the item meets all the requirements.

Same experience here. I have made dozens of international flights with guitars (including guitars in Caltons, Hoffees and a Hiscox) and never had a single question about the guitar, let alone the wood it was made from.

[Sasquatchian]

Originally Posted by colins

Same experience here. I have made dozens of international flights with guitars (including guitars in Caltons, Hoffees and a Hiscox) and never had a single question about the guitar, let alone the wood it was made from.

Did any of your guitars have any of the wood that might cause an issue? Did you have the proper documentation if you had been checked further, and finally, what happens if you have an instrument with no Brazilian or anything else that might bed banned and a customs officer decides to assert that your guitar does indeed contain the banned would even though you know it doesn't? Does that mean you need to have docs on every instrument no matter what? Just asking potential questions that might be considered.

[Robin, Wales]

I think that the CITES regulations have changed. Originally, moving musical instruments was a problem but now it is not. I can't remember the details so folks will have to look those up.

However, the US has its own regulations (Lacy Act?) that trump the international ones. They may be more stringent. Again I can't remember the details so folks will need to look them up.