Guitar Picks....

[flaggerphil]

I've been using Fender Thins and their clones since I first started playing. More recently, depending on the tone of the guitar and the song I'm playing, I will sometimes use a Dunlop Delrin 500 .46.

[Lillis]

Various Cool brand picks. Have only found them at Elderly Instruments. Great grips.

[Brucebubs]

Like guitars and strings and tone .... it's all so subjective.
I like these;

[N+1]

After more than a year, I'm still experiencing a kind of love/hate relationship with this homemade pick, which I made some time ago from two triangular thin Alice picks stuck together with their points slightly displaced:



It tends to be noisy, let me say that from the start. And yet, and yet, it can produce a vaguely 12-stringish 'chiming' sound that seems to fit well with some songs - or some moods. A sort of 60s/hippyish sound. I couldn't possibly use it often (a little of it goes a long way), but I do like to take it out now and then for a completely different experience.

[Charmed Life Picks]

Originally Posted by hatefulsob

Scott,
Do most of these unused thermoplastics cost $1100 for a square 10" x 10" x .25?

To mix a couple responses in together:

1) Wade, thanks for your supportive comments. I'm always afraid I go on too long. BTW, a funny (and true) story. Because of my penchant for research, I just have to know EVERYTHING about everything I look into; it's just the way I'm built. It borders on OCD, actually. So, check it out: A couple years ago I was talking to a major plastics distributor on the phone and running down some materials and asking a LOT of questions, and he said, "Whoa, whoa, dude. You know more about this stuff than we do; you should come to work here." True story. Oh Lord, I'm obsessive.

2) Excellent question. Yes and no. I guess I'll just give a quick rundown of the last thirty years or so history of high-performance plastics.

The "brown stuff" that we and Blue Chip use is made by DuPont. It's known as DuPont Vespel, and yes, that's the actual price, and not much discount offer that unless your name is Boeing or Lockheed. But here's what most people don't realize (I don't think I mentioned this above). That brown stuff is the CHEAPEST in the Vespel lineup (!!!!!). They have more than ten other grades that have particular additives for specific industries. For example, there's a grade specific to healthcare and ultra-sanity situations. But all those grades are more expensive than the brown stuff, some more than twice the price. And all the other grades are either dark gray or black.

Being heavy into R&D, DuPont was the first in the plastics industry to develop what is known as a polyimide thermoset plastic. Believe it not, it is mostly used to replace metal parts, in many cases heavy duty industrial bearings. The advantage? As many BC players will tell you, it has a slightly self-lubricating molecular structure built into the molecular structure built into the material. This is why so many guitar players love the way Vespel releases off the strings, making it easy to play really fast with this stuff. Also, in terms of aircraft, it is lighter than most metals, so in an industry where you measure fuel efficiency in ounces, it makes the aircraft lighter.

On the marketing side -- here's where it gets really interesting. DuPont owns the market. Why? They were first. So, check it out: Every major DOD / Mil spec manufacturer in the U.S. started spec-ing in Vespel to their plans and blueprints about thirty years ago. Vespel, and only Vespel. They effectively slammed the door on ALL of their competitors, leaving them to hang out to dry. Remember those DOD folks who brought us $800 toilet seats? Same guys. They have more money than your Higher Power, and since they can afford anything they want it's easier for the engineers to just spec in the DuPont material and run with it. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

In the ensuing decades every major petro-chemical company on the planet has come out with their own Vespel knock-off. BUT because this material was spec'd in over thirty years go by people who have so much money they have trouble spending it all, there have no motivation to switch.

Hateful, so back to your original question: Yes, there are tons of comparable plastics to the brown stuff and they are ALL cheaper -- some half the price, and some very good ones even less than a QUARTER of the price of the DuPont stuff. So that's where the hundred-plus different engineering plastics come from. Remember than the DuPont material has more than ten different grades. So each company knocking them off also has to have five to ten different grades, to compete.

Honestly, it's possible (and this is not pride, just an observation) that I may know more about industrial plastics than anyone in the guitar pick industry. I'm a font of useless information. But I enjoy sharing this knowledge with others, because it helps them make an informed decision about what picks to buy. And again, to really nail it down: No, Blue Chip is not "ripping you off." If anything, they should raise their prices. And I say this as someone on the inside, who has crunched those same numbers. It ain't pretty. When you factor in seconds, and blems, and CNC errors, and the rest, they're working off very slim margins. Finally, because of the durability mentioned above, this stuff is murder to work with, just terrible. It eats hundred-dollar CNC blades like candy.

Well, that's the rundown. If this post was any longer, it should come out in hardcover.

Hey Wade, do you think it would be okay with the mods if I posted a general thread about the different pick materials out there. It would not be a CLP pitch, but just a primer and overview of the pick industry.

Thanks, Gents,
Scott Memmer

[jojobean39]

Originally Posted by Charmed Life Picks

Hey Wade, do you think it would be okay with the mods if I posted a general thread about the different pick materials out there. It would not be a CLP pitch, but just a primer and overview of the pick industry.

Thanks, Gents,
Scott Memmer

While I am not Wade or anyone who has any influence at all here, I’d love to see that thread. I have found the information here about Blue Chip and my beloved Wegens to be fascinating.

So, if this material is so expensive and other companies besides DuPont make it, why not use their products? I would imagine, for pick purposes, quality would be indiscernible.

[Charmed Life Picks]

Originally Posted by jojobean39

While I am not Wade or anyone who has any influence at all here, I’d love to see that thread. I have found the information here about Blue Chip and my beloved Wegens to be fascinating.

So, if this material is so expensive and other companies besides DuPont make it, why not use their products? I would imagine, for pick purposes, quality would be indiscernible.

JoJo, first, a clarification on my end.

Yes, there are more than 100 industrial plastics out there that might make great guitar picks, but they aren't the same formulation as the DuPont. Sorry if this is confusing. The actual formula for the DuPont stuff must be locked in a safe somewhere. They have licensed two other companies to also make this stuff, BUT it's a slightly different shade of brown (lighter) than the genuine DuPont stuff. So a lot of people, including me, are leery of it.

Also, from a marketing standpoint, the darker chocolate shade of brown has become an industry standard. People get concerned when they see changes, and this could affect sales. And who knows if it's only color that's different.

I was able to locate a thread from a few weeks ago that addresses that exact concern: https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/...d.php?t=508987

In the first post, the OP wrote, "Just a question to those who own/seen multiple, are colour variations normal? Mine seem to be a little lighter than my friend's..."

My best guess is that the other brands are identical, but I haven't been able to confirm this from anyone in the industry.

[jojobean39]

Has anyone tried these other, lighter plastics to make picks?

I can’t imagine as guitarists would (or could) be too discriminating on it as the majority of us don’t know boo about it. I’ve got more education than the vast majority of people on materials (that involves ONE materials engineering course in undergrad) and I wouldn’t know the difference at all if I saw it.

Don’t give us guitarists too much credit for being smart.

[Charmed Life Picks]

Originally Posted by jojobean39

Has anyone tried these other, lighter plastics to make picks?

I can’t imagine as guitarists would (or could) be too discriminating on it as the majority of us don’t know boo about it. I’ve got more education than the vast majority of people on materials (that involves ONE materials engineering course in undergrad) and I wouldn’t know the difference at all if I saw it.

Don’t give us guitarists too much credit for being smart.

s

Jojo, when you say "lighter plastics" is there any way you could be more specifics? Do you know the names of these materials? That would help a lot. There are thousands of plastics in the industry.

BTW, it is my firm belief that one day the best picks in the industry might possibly made by industrial 3-D printing.

scott memmer

[jojobean39]

When I said “lighter”, I was referring to your statement below. Lighter meaning color.

Originally Posted by Charmed Life Picks

They have licensed two other companies to also make this stuff, BUT it's a slightly different shade of brown (lighter) than the genuine DuPont stuff. So a lot of people, including me, are leery of it.

I was just curious if you have ever tried these bobo, non-DuPont plastics. My point was, even though they’re not up to DuPont spec and color, I wonder how well they would do for our purposes, as half the cost.

[Charmed Life Picks]

Originally Posted by jojobean39

When I said “lighter”, I was referring to your statement below. Lighter meaning color.




I was just curious if you have ever tried these bobo, non-DuPont plastics. My point was, even though they’re not up to DuPont spec and color, I wonder how well they would do for our purposes, as half the cost.

Excuse my ignorance, but I'm not familiar with bobo.

I will say this: the reason Vespel is so expensive is because of the incredible heat and pressure used in forming the material. They use a process called sintering, which is a very expensive process but result in a very dense and almost unbreakable plastic. This is what produces the mechanical properties that make it such a dynamic pick material.

scott

[jojobean39]

Haha. Bobo just means generic- not name brand. Like when someone in grade school wears some ugly shoes that weren’t Nikes or Adidas, they got accused of wearing Bobos.

Hopefully as you educate me on pick materials, I can educate you on the thug life of a prep school graduate.

My thought was just that it seems other companies are making similar plastics- albeit not DuPont’s formulae. I imagine they’re probably similar, with a much lower cost.

I just wondered if you had tried the non-DuPont version of these plastics for making picks. You said you were a bit leery of them, because they were not real DuPont. But has anyone tried them and compared?

[Charmed Life Picks]

Originally Posted by jojobean39

Haha. Bobo just means generic- not name brand. Like when someone in grade school wears some ugly shoes that weren’t Nikes or Adidas, they got accused of wearing Bobos.

Hopefully as you educate me on pick materials, I can educate you on the thug life of a prep school graduate.

My thought was just that it seems other companies are making similar plastics- albeit not DuPont’s formulae. I imagine they’re probably similar, with a much lower cost.

I just wondered if you had tried the non-DuPont version of these plastics for making picks. You said you were a bit leery of them, because they were not real DuPont. But has anyone tried them and compared?

Jojo, I didn't know bobo. Hah!

Okay, ya got me.

Actually, no, I haven't tried those other versions, of which there are two, each made by different companies. I have no reason to think they wouldn't be just as good.

As I understand it, I believe the patent ran out a while back for DuPont on Vespel. However, they retain all the info for the formulation and processing, which must be pretty exact and detailed to produce that incredible material.

I believe I'm correct in saying that DuPont is not actually the manufacturer of this product any more. They've licensed it out to other extruders in the country. To my knowledge, they have only two companies that make the stuff in North America.

DuPont has a long and heralded reputation in the plastics biz of being control freaks and difficult to work with. They control EVERYTHING, down to marketing, distribution, and pricing. Although you can often get the stuff sideways through other two-steppers and distributors, they have only two official distributors in the U.S., one east of the Mississippi and one west. And good luck getting a discount. The distributors are locked into contracted pricing, and DuPont takes a really heavy hammer to them if they violate this structure. Not too long ago they fired one of their master distributors for pricing and other violations and switched to another company.

Yeah, some of this is scuttlebutt and gossip. But the plastics biz, once you get inside, is actually a fairly small business. Everyone knows everyone, knows what the other guy is doing, and reps and execs often move from one company to another.

your rumor monger

[phcorrigan]

Lately these have been my go-to picks: https://www.amazon.com/Dava-6024-Gri...a+guitar+picks

[Charmed Life Picks]

Originally Posted by phcorrigan

Lately these have been my go-to picks: https://www.amazon.com/Dava-6024-Gri...a+guitar+picks

The Davas are really popular. A lot of folks like the added grips.

sm