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  #76  
Old 01-17-2022, 05:45 PM
Petty1818 Petty1818 is offline
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Originally Posted by Paleolith54 View Post
Well, what you're saying is also true "to a point." Maybe there are some styles out there (maybe Bluegrass?) that simply don't allow you to sound good through a piezo: I can't say there aren't, as I don't know everything. Certainly, playing like you need to drive the top is guaranteed to give you a crappy sound through a piezo. But I do know that saying "they all quack" is an incorrect generalization. My Crowdster doesn't quack. At all. And I play on a loud rock stage, with lots of dynamics, and I certainly don't play "lightly." It's hard to put into words, but there is an adjustment you can make to your attack that, in conjunction with other things (like knowing how to eq,) can give you an excellent acoustic sound with none of the quack people rightly complain about. But it's not automatic: it takes some trial-and-error to get the hang of it but when you do, you can have a very good acoustic sound.
Sorry, just to clarify. My point is that all UST pickups can quack. I just mean that they all share the same design so one isn't necessarily going to be better than the other. The Dtar Wavelength is one of the best, but that's not the pickup as it uses the Baggs Element. That design is better because of the 18v preamp. I am not familiar with the Crowdster, but looked it up and it said it uses a special designed Baggs pickup/preamp so I can't comment on it.
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  #77  
Old 01-17-2022, 06:19 PM
HogsNRoses HogsNRoses is offline
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On multi-element piezos: many or most piezo pickups used to have individual elements, such as the Martin Thinline made by Fishman. The best live acoustic guitar I ever heard was a D28 with an old Thinline. Nevertheless, the thin ribbon pickups used today are an improvement over those old designs, in part because they don’t mess with the bridge as much.

I’ve tried lots of pickups and now have the K&K. It has three elements, so I’m probably still in the multi-element camp.

Electrically, the quack probably comes from the piezo’s similarity to a ceramic capacitor. With some exceptions, ceramic capacitors change their capacitance with voltage, so they distort sound waves. The higher the voltage, the more distortion, and even the typical guitar signal of 1 volt is enough. Furthermore, the distortion is the unmusical/harsh type - odd harmonics.

Most of the audible quack can be reduced with a simple circuit that disfavors those odd harmonics.

P.S. for the electronics nerds:

https://www.edn.com/signal-distortio...ic-capacitors/
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  #78  
Old 01-17-2022, 07:36 PM
Petty1818 Petty1818 is offline
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Originally Posted by HogsNRoses View Post
On multi-element piezos: many or most piezo pickups used to have individual elements, such as the Martin Thinline made by Fishman. The best live acoustic guitar I ever heard was a D28 with an old Thinline. Nevertheless, the thin ribbon pickups used today are an improvement over those old designs, in part because they don’t mess with the bridge as much.

I’ve tried lots of pickups and now have the K&K. It has three elements, so I’m probably still in the multi-element camp.

Electrically, the quack probably comes from the piezo’s similarity to a ceramic capacitor. With some exceptions, ceramic capacitors change their capacitance with voltage, so they distort sound waves. The higher the voltage, the more distortion, and even the typical guitar signal of 1 volt is enough. Furthermore, the distortion is the unmusical/harsh type - odd harmonics.

Most of the audible quack can be reduced with a simple circuit that disfavors those odd harmonics.

P.S. for the electronics nerds:

https://www.edn.com/signal-distortio...ic-capacitors/
Pretty sure the Thinline was just a rebranded Matrix. I have heard some amazing tones from the Matrix. Oddly enough, it always seems to be in Gibson guitars.
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  #79  
Old 01-20-2022, 11:56 AM
SpruceTop SpruceTop is online now
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Originally Posted by Petty1818 View Post
Pretty sure the Thinline was just a rebranded Matrix. I have heard some amazing tones from the Matrix. Oddly enough, it always seems to be in Gibson guitars.
Back in early December 1982, while sitting on the Martin factory floor and demonstrating what I heard as acoustic-electric tonal deficiencies (quack) in my recently-purchased new 1982 Martin D-28E with its recently developed UST, three-crystal bridge saddle/pickup to John Marshall, John hinted that a new thin under saddle pickup was coming. Sure enough, in Spring 1983, Martin started equipping their acoustic-electric models with a Fishman Thinline-style pickup. In June of 1983, I bought a Martin MC-28E with that new pickup in it. Frankly, both styles of these UST pickups didn't sound as good as the Ovation guitars with their UST-based pickup/preamp. Although the two Martin guitars were excellent sounding acoustically, I traded them in later that year.
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Last edited by SpruceTop; 01-22-2022 at 08:31 AM.
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  #80  
Old 01-22-2022, 05:56 AM
Robin, Wales Robin, Wales is online now
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Originally Posted by Silly Moustache View Post

Just before the first lock down Feb 2020, I was told of an "open mic" in a nearby pub so went along to "suss it out".

Medium sized room, pa large enough for the Albert Hall.
Willing organiser and p.a. "controller burt all too loud and poorly EQd.

I went on and asked to use just the two SM58s .

one on my guitar and ne on my voice. He seems confised by this and kept pushing the mics until one touched ym strings and the other my lips (!)

I re positioned (six inches is close enough). He introduced me and some applauded and others just continued talking as they had been all evening.

i started and all (but me) fell silent. They started ...listening.
then people from the other bar came in and listened, and the guys from the pool hall came closer.

I got a big hand -yeah, I can sing and play OK , but with a clean moderate n messed up sound hey ... listened.

After my spot some young chap spent fifteen minutes setting up his "pedal board" and other impedimenta and everyone went back to talking and shouting through his set.

After being asked a host of questions at the door, I left quietly.

Sadly - then we had lockdown,and I haven't been to a pub since.
Ahh... So true Andy!

When I ran the desk at the local open mic in the cinema bar, I would mic' the guitars and keep the volumes down. Folks would whisper their orders at the bar and walk out of the bar into the auditorium to chat with friends. If I turned the volume up, folks would shout their orders at the bar, and shout conversations with their friends in the bar room. We ran a few sessions completely acoustically if the p/a was being used for something else (not so good for those who bought plug-in kit LOL!!!) or single mic'd (my favourite).

I really don't want to plug in when I play - and I have seen enough bands and solo artists at large (5000 seat) venues who have just mic'd to know its possible. One or two Ear Trumpet mic's are on my wish list for live gigs (if I actually get into doing enough to warrant the expenditure). I do have a Rode NT1a and SM57 (plus some 58s) so I can more than get away with what I already have.

We would always single mic' when I played in a bluegrass band, but did plug in the bass player to a kick-back bass amp well back behind us all and let that bleed into the single mic. He had a crappy cheap laminated 3/4 upright that he had painted with black gloss paint, so it needed a lift.
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  #81  
Old 01-23-2022, 09:13 AM
lkingston lkingston is offline
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A few years ago I was doing a duo with a singer. We were playing a Friday then Saturday night. On that Saturday morning, the club installed some acoustic treatment hanging panels which hung down maybe eight inches from the ceiling.

The difference was unbelievable. On Friday, the conversation in the bar was really loud and we did our best to be heard over it. On Saturday with the acoustic panels, the same conversations were quiet, and we were able to play much softer. I never would have believed that the acoustic panels would make so much difference if I hadn’t had that experience.
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