Is this South American or African mahogany?

[beatcomber]

Originally Posted by Arthur Slowhand

I think the only definitive way to tell which mahogany OPs guitar is made of, is to saw it in half so that we can take a look at the end grain.

Great idea! I'll give it a shot!

Originally Posted by charles Tauber

In the back, the presence of the cross-grain pattern - what is often referred to in coniferous tops as "silk", the sectioned medullary rays - indicates that the back is dead-on quarter sawn. The absence of that on the top indicates that the top is not dead-on quarter sawn.

Ah, very good information! Thanks for that.

[gr81dorn]

Originally Posted by charles Tauber

In the back, the presence of the cross-grain pattern - what is often referred to in coniferous tops as "silk", the sectioned medullary rays - indicates that the back is dead-on quarter sawn. The absence of that on the top indicates that the top is not dead-on quarter sawn.

That's actually not necessarily the case in Mahogany or "mahogany" which have transverse grains and they can run out of faces causing the the faces to present like end grain. It's a beautiful chaos unique to species like mahogany, but doesn't necessarily reflect the direction of the cut like it might on more traditional hardwood species.

[beatcomber]

Originally Posted by gr81dorn

That's actually not necessarily the case in Mahogany or "mahogany" which have transverse grains and they can run out of faces causing the the faces to present like end grain. It's a beautiful chaos unique to species like mahogany, but doesn't necessarily reflect the direction of the cut like it might on more traditional hardwood species.

This has been a very interesting thread!

[John Arnold]

"Mahogany" has become a category to encompass a lot of stuff these days.

Not just these days. When I first got interested in wood in the mid-1960's, I had catalogs from Constantine's and other wood suppliers, and names like African mahogany (khaya) and Philippine mahogany (lauan) were in common use back then. Albert Constantine's book 'Know Your Woods' (published in 1959) has a detailed description of African Mahogany (Khaya ivorensis), where it is compared to 'new world mahogany'.

I have known about storied rays for a very long time. Storied rays cause the ripple marks on flatsawn surfaces. The problem is, most mahogany used by Martin is quartersawn.
I bought mahogany boards salvaged from a defunct veneer mill in the late-1970's, and was able to identify it as khaya by the staggered rays. No DNA test necessary.

Martin actually used khaya on style-18 backs and sides in the 1970's, as told by their wood buyer who recently retired.

AFAIK, Martin's recent use of the term 'genuine mahogany' is limited to Swietenia macrophylla, AKA South American, Honduran, etc. But that is not necessarily a description of where it comes from. These days, S. macrophylla can be sourced from Fiji or elsewhere, the result of plantation operations.

[DukeX]

Originally Posted by beatcomber

I just found the reference you mentioned:
http://onemanz.com/guitar/tag/sipo/#...%20with%20sipo.

African sipo, the New “Mahogany”


At C.F. Martin, the term “mahogany” no longer refers to South American mahogany, as it has since company’s founding. The term now officially refers to an African wood called sipo, also known by its scientific name utile.

The term “genuine mahogany” will remain in use at Martin when referring to, well, genuine mahogany.

Sipo is a close genetic relative to sapele. Both are members of the botanical mahogany family, but where Martin always listed sapele as its own type of wood, and referred to it as “African mahogany,” sipo is only referred to as “mahogany”.

All Martins in the 15 Series, including all 15M guitars, are now made with sipo. This is a clear sign of the limited availability of instrument-grade South American mahogany. It is also a sign of Martin’s embracing sipo as a suitable replacement for genuine mahogany as that wood drawers nearer and nearer to possible extinction, at least when it comes to wide availability in international trade.

In general, the timber industry considers sipo to be much more like South American mahogany in its physical properties than any other alternative. But when it comes to guitar making, one industry insider described it this way: “It looked, worked and had a tap tone like Mahogany… I do think out of all the “cousins” of mahogany… (Spanish) Cedar, Sapele, African Mahogany (Khaya)… Sipo has the most similar tonal qualities to genuine Mahogany.”

One owner of a sipro 00-15 recently arrived from the custom shop with a full gloss body, simply said his guitar “looks and sounds great.”

This is the same article I have read, and I believe they are using Sipo for the 15 series.

I love my 000-15sm, therefore I love Sipo.

[Arthur Slowhand]

Originally Posted by rwmct

"Mahogany" has come to have a broad meaning because manufacturers want to have it both ways: they want to use wood that is not mahogany, and they want to be able to call it mahogany.

It means "some kind of wood that looks and sounds like mahogany, but probably is not."

I think they'd be facing law suits if they did what you're suggesting - at least they would here in the UK and EU. There's no way that a manufacturer can make a false claim like that.

[rwmct]

Originally Posted by Arthur Slowhand

I think they'd be facing law suits if they did what you're suggesting - at least they would here in the UK and EU. There's no way that a manufacturer can make a false claim like that.

Not sure what part of what I said you disagree with. They admit it themselves. When they make a guitar out of mahogany they call it "genuine mahogany." When they make it from something else, they call it "mahogany." By using the term "genuine" they are admitting that the other guitars they say are made of a "mahogany" are "not genuine."

I don't know how it could be clearer.

[Mobile1]

I'd say it's Fiji mahogany.

[Drak]

Go to about the 3:30 mark and pick it up from there.
Maybe helpful, maybe nothing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8iRVtvStY8

[bufflehead]

Originally Posted by Drak

Go to about the 3:30 mark and pick it up from there.
Maybe helpful, maybe nothing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8iRVtvStY8

At 4:35 she states that the 15 series is crafted from "genuine South American mahogany." This is the same thing Martin told me when I bought my 000-15m.

[JP Richardson]

[QUOTE=beatcomber;6216175]I've been looking at examples of different woods online, and I just can't conclude what type of mahogany was used on my 000-15SM

What do you think? Is this South American, African or some other type of mahogany? FWIW, it doesn't really matter, it sounds great no matter what it is, I'm just curious.
Definitely African..........Probably.....Nah, just kidding. Looks African to me.

[Drak]

At 4:35 she states that the 15 series is crafted from "genuine South American mahogany."
This is the same thing Martin told me when I bought my 000-15m.

Yes, one of the reasons I posted it.
But also she said the phrase 'we're really nervous' about future Mohogany supplies.
She said it several times.
And the YT was from 2014 I think.
OP guitar is 2019 I believe.
It looks nearly identical.
So, ...draw your own conclusions.

[beatcomber]

I’m surprised by how cloudy the info is about this is.

[guitar george]

That is a beautiful guitar made with beautiful mahogany. Nice to know that it has been confirmed by Martin to be genuine no-name mahogany.

[Iain1231]

Im guessing its Sipo. Well at least its better than khaya tonally.