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  #16  
Old 04-20-2019, 11:13 AM
Rudy4 Rudy4 is offline
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Originally Posted by rick-slo View Post
Think this is pretty neat:


I think there's a lot of sense made in the video. Towards the end "Roxanne" was listed as an example. If anyone thinks that song could have been improved with quantization I'd say there's something seriously wrong with their sense of musicality.

It's amusing to watch this video as it reminds me of a topic here on this forum where I suggested that recording music to a click track might not be the best idea.

I got beat up pretty bad for the idea. I could go back and find the topic, but those who contributed to the pummeling know who they are.
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  #17  
Old 04-20-2019, 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Rudy4 View Post
I think there's a lot of sense made in the video. Towards the end "Roxanne" was listed as an example. If anyone thinks that song could have been improved with quantization I'd say there's something seriously wrong with their sense of musicality.

It's amusing to watch this video as it reminds me of a topic here on this forum where I suggested that recording music to a click track might not be the best idea.

I got beat up pretty bad for the idea. I could go back and find the topic, but those who contributed to the pummeling know who they are.
I'm generally not a fan of metronome use when playing through pieces (though might suffice for ragtime and bluegrass pieces ).
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  #18  
Old 04-20-2019, 12:14 PM
Trevor B. Trevor B. is offline
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Originally Posted by Rudy4 View Post
It's amusing to watch this video as it reminds me of a topic here on this forum where I suggested that recording music to a click track might not be the best idea.

I got beat up pretty bad for the idea. I could go back and find the topic, but those who contributed to the pummeling know who they are.
Or not! I sure hope I wasn't a contributor to the pummelling?? That said, a metronome can be a very helpful tool, especially when learning new pieces that rely on consistent meter to convey rhythmic drive (i.e Preludes, Gigues and Italian Courantes from Baroque Instrumental suites as well as folk music jigs and reels). However; when a metronome becomes a crutch rather than a tool it's time to give it a pass IMHO! To your point I agree there's a lot of music that needs metric flexibility to breathe. Then there are the many opera singers to whom one might justifiably say as the accompanist, "Hey, there is a time signature, you know!"
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  #19  
Old 04-20-2019, 02:31 PM
Chipotle Chipotle is offline
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He makes one point about a technique that has been used for years before digital audio: copying and pasting parts around. Even back in the analog days, they could get one good take of a section (say, the chorus) and the "fly it in" to repeat it in another spot. Digital just makes it easier.

You don't have to quantize to copy/paste digitally, either. I do it all the time. So I'm not sure that part of his argument holds.
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  #20  
Old 04-20-2019, 02:55 PM
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He makes one point about a technique that has been used for years before digital audio: copying and pasting parts around. Even back in the analog days, they could get one good take of a section (say, the chorus) and the "fly it in" to repeat it in another spot. Digital just makes it easier.

You don't have to quantize to copy/paste digitally, either. I do it all the time. So I'm not sure that part of his argument holds.
Timing of multiple tracks is snapping to grid in the video for very precise computer set timing.
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  #21  
Old 04-20-2019, 03:59 PM
KevWind KevWind is offline
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Originally Posted by Rudy4 View Post
I think there's a lot of sense made in the video. Towards the end "Roxanne" was listed as an example. If anyone thinks that song could have been improved with quantization I'd say there's something seriously wrong with their sense of musicality.

It's amusing to watch this video as it reminds me of a topic here on this forum where I suggested that recording music to a click track might not be the best idea.

I got beat up pretty bad for the idea. I could go back and find the topic, but those who contributed to the pummeling know who they are.



First off recording to a click is not the same thing as Quantizing hard to the grid . In point of fact recording to click is going to have subtle variations in timing .. Which is why when hard quantizing ( which I agree unless you are doing EDM is not a great idea) is even done to tracks recorded with a click... No pummeling, simply pointing out the difference or inconsistency (much like what happend in the other thread BTW )
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  #22  
Old 04-20-2019, 06:36 PM
Chipotle Chipotle is offline
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Originally Posted by rick-slo View Post
Timing of multiple tracks is snapping to grid in the video for very precise computer set timing.
Right, but he also goes on about how you can then just cut/paste/move things around to make songs without actually playing anything. Not really part of his argument against quantizing and auto-tune, but also not unique to modern digital recordings.
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  #23  
Old 04-20-2019, 08:15 PM
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Right, but he also goes on about how you can then just cut/paste/move things around to make songs without actually playing anything. Not really part of his argument against quantizing and auto-tune, but also not unique to modern digital recordings.
Each cut and paste it is being snapped to the preset time grid. They are all quantized on the spot. He shows with a bunch of examples how it might be done
in a studio and as a result why it has become more possible and prevalent for studio musicians to record their parts separately, not together as a group.
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  #24  
Old 04-21-2019, 07:39 AM
KevWind KevWind is offline
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Originally Posted by rick-slo View Post
Each cut and paste it is being snapped to the preset time grid. They are all quantized on the spot. He shows with a bunch of examples how it might be done
in a studio and as a result why it has become more possible and prevalent for studio musicians to record their parts separately, not together as a group.
Well yes and no. Cut and pasting a section of music is not the same thing as "quantizing" that section from say "Beat Detective" or other "audio" quantizing software. Those are two entirely different mixing processes.

YES: each cut and paste for that section ( or duplicate) the "starting point of that selection " for that section CAN be snapped to the grid. However NO: that does not automatically mean that the start of music in that selection is snapped to grid , it can still be in front of or behind the beat . And even if the start of the music is in fact snapped to the grid/beat that does not mean that the rest of the music in that section is "quantized ". If there are timing anomalies in that section they are not "quantized" to the grid/beat ,,,, they are simply duplicated with whatever variance from the grid (beat) they were recorded at .

And to clarify "Recording separately" has no direct causation nor is it specifically facilitated from or by, quantising , cut and paste , or recording to a click, Per. Se.

Lets not forget it was multi track "tape" recording that first allowed musicians to record "separately" and later combine separate parts. Rock bands were doing that long before digital came into use.
Whie it is true that digital recording and digital files has made separate recording "more possible' ...
It's entirely possible and is done all the time , where a guitarist records an entire song, then a drummer records the entire song, then a vocalist etc etc etc. with nary a quantize grid or Cut and paste in sight . And can even be done sans a click

The available software tools are one situation.. the "mixing decisions" and process decisions are a different situation. and while they can certainly be contextually related, they are not automatically mutually inclusive or inherent .

Again what is actually invalid in that video is the suggestion (especially the title) that association equals causation ...
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  #25  
Old 04-21-2019, 08:32 AM
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Originally Posted by KevWind View Post
Well yes and no. Cut and pasting a section of music is not the same thing as "quantizing" that section from say "Beat Detective" or other "audio" quantizing software. Those are two entirely different mixing processes.

YES: each cut and paste for that section ( or duplicate) the "starting point of that selection " for that section CAN be snapped to the grid. However NO: that does not automatically mean that the start of music in that selection is snapped to grid , it can still be in front of or behind the beat . And even if the start of the music is in fact snapped to the grid/beat that does not mean that the rest of the music in that section is "quantized ". If there are timing anomalies in that section they are not "quantized" to the grid/beat ,,,, they are simply duplicated with whatever variance from the grid (beat) they were recorded at.
Yes, I know about cutting and pasting, however in this video what he is cutting and pasting - or copying and pasting - or cutting and snapping to grid - are small areas that have already been quantized via beat detective (see starting around 4:15 and to the point where he talks about pocketing left over imperfections in timing). You can hear the results as goes along.

The guy knows his way around terminology, software and a DAW. It was fun watching him.
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  #26  
Old 04-21-2019, 08:58 AM
KevWind KevWind is offline
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Originally Posted by rick-slo View Post
Yes, I know about cutting and pasting, however in this video what he is cutting and pasting - or copying and pasting - or cutting and snapping to grid - are small areas that have already been quantized via beat detective (see starting around 4:15 and to the point where he talks about pocketing left over imperfections in timing).

The guy knows his way around terminology, software and a DAW. It was fun watching him.
Ok I get it being fun to watch.
Yes I watched the video, understand the terminology, have done all those processes personally, and know and exactly what he doing and talking about .

But the "general" informational point I was trying to make (not just at you) but for those here that may not know exactly the processes or terminology ........ is "All of that" involves specific personal mixing decisions and is entirely caused by specific personal decisions and have no causation from the tools involved . Which by misleading title he is inferring ..... That a tool allows something to done is not indicating that it will be done...Just because I have a compound miter saw does not mean every cut has to be compound cut.
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  #27  
Old 04-21-2019, 09:08 AM
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Ok I get it being fun to watch.
Yes I watched the video, understand the terminology, have done all those processes personally, and know and exactly what he doing and talking about .

But the "general" informational point I was trying to make (not just at you) but for those here that may not know exactly the processes or terminology ........ is "All of that" involves specific personal mixing decisions and is entirely caused by specific personal decisions and have no causation from the tools involved . Which by misleading title he is inferring ..... That a tool allows something to done is not indicating that it will be done...Just because I have a compound miter saw does not mean every cut has to be compound cut.
True, it a personal decision as to what to do. However this level of beat control is now done pretty frequently in the industry and that was his point.
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  #28  
Old 04-21-2019, 09:21 AM
KevWind KevWind is offline
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True, it a personal decision as to what to do. However this level of beat control is now done pretty frequently in the industry and that was his point.
I think we basically agree .
I get that and do not misunderstand I completely agree that doing that to the extent that it kills the groove and humanity is sad, and arguably happens far to much.
And I personally like Ric B and have watched a number of his videos But I am also aware that in his genuine passion and the fact that he is also YT monetization channel , he often accentuates the positive and exaggerates the negative .. thus grain of salt ,,, which is my point
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  #29  
Old 05-01-2019, 06:00 PM
archerscreek archerscreek is offline
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People kill music.

I've long referred to lead guitar as the "finger olympics." People want to experience other people attempting great things and either succeeding or crashing and burning. That's where part of the excitement comes from. So it is with music. Without attempting and accomplishing or failing, music becomes equivalent to wind-up music boxes. Part of the joy is experiencing excellence in performance, accomplishment. It is that way whether you are hearing a Baroque minuet or a solo acoustic piece or an ensemble piece. Way back in the 1980s they discovered this with the whole MIDI revolution. They could play the whole band with a handful of keyboards and a TRS-808 drum machine but it was BORING and mechanical. They had to bring in guitarists to play with imperfect humanity to bring the thing back to life.

I'm reminded of "the curse of CGI." These days in film, quantity and size of practically everything is created with CGI. It can look quite impressive, but the knowledge that the bigness of the scene never actually happened, never existed, takes the wind out of suspension of disbelief for many in the audience. For instance, modern film representations of swarms of WWII aircraft flying might be impressive on the surface but the knowledge that they are only graphics underlies our consciousness. When you compare that to a movie called The Battle of Britain ("BOB"), filmed in 1969, it pales. BOB battle scenes contain a large collection of WWII aircraft. The bombers were the entire bomber fleet of Spain. At the time, the collection of fighters formed the largest private air force in the world. The flight scenes there are FAR more believable, even with their shortcomings, than modern CGI. Similarly, for the D-Day film, The Longest Day, they had 2000 extras in uniforms run away from the strafing run of the two (2, count 'em) German planes that were actually able to make it to the beachhead on the actual day. For Twelve O'Clock High, a stunt pilot actually belly-landed a real B-17 bomber, something no-one wants to do. All this contributed to a feeling that you were actually witnessing something big occurring. By contrast, the modern Red Tails movie depicting the Tuskegee Airmen was hampered by the fact that the CGI fighter aircraft in the combat scenes behaved more like Star Wars spacecraft than piston-powered prop-driven aircraft.

Thus it is with music: you must maintain the suspense generated by the possibility of failure in order generate excitement. Your big attempts need to be big. Your parts need to have humanity. When I am producing and performing in the studio I tend to buck the trend towards perfection. When I am creating and performing lead guitar parts for music I try to perform them all the way through, front to back. You know, you often improvise these parts. While I may play until I crash and burn and then punch-in again until I crash again, etc., once I get a solo that I like I'll usually come back and re-perform the solo front to back as a whole so that it contains that challenge of attempt and accomplishment. Without it there is no excitement. There's no fear of failure.

Bob
I agree with your insight. I loved Hendrix and SRV because they played all out and took chances left and right. Watching and listening to them in live recordings and DVDs is excellent entertainment. I'm also a huge fan of Clarence White and I remember reading an interview of Tony Rice. Rice said what he most admired about White was how aggressively and fearlessly he played.
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