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  #31  
Old 11-14-2018, 12:58 PM
varmonter varmonter is offline
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For me there is no preference. I am a singer
and a guitar player. I try to eek the most out of both.
This is really more for me than the audience.
who i find in general is less hard on me then
i am. When i listen to a solo performer
I listen to both guitar and vocal. I think
the vocal is much easier to sound good
using a mic 100 % of the time.
Guitars have much more involved tone
shaping as one tends to want a pickup to
sound like a mic. As a musician audience
member i suppose i listen for this more in the guitar
than vocals because it's more of a chore to obtain.
And then there's talent...
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  #32  
Old 11-14-2018, 02:30 PM
guitar george guitar george is offline
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Originally Posted by byudzai View Post
Of the hundreds of people I've watched play and sing I've never once thought "that guitar should be better!"
I agree, but, maybe the guitar playing could be better. Usually it's more the singing that is judged by whether it is good or not so good.
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  #33  
Old 11-14-2018, 04:14 PM
Beachnut Beachnut is offline
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Simple answer:

I'm a female vocalist, piano/keyboard for yrs both in rock and blues bands and solo gigs. Part owner of a recording studio. I'm been using acoustic guitar 3 yrs.

With vocals and guitar don't choose one whose intonation to your voice. That's why RW is so popular with male/female guitarists. the mids are out.

Agree with the sustain issue. Although I'm a Taylor fan, not one of the V Class bracing for singers. On Piano, it's like keeping the damper pedal down, so all the chords run into each other.

Let your voice be the instrument, let the guitar blend. On instrumental, keep it within your speaking voice tones.
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  #34  
Old 11-14-2018, 04:57 PM
Oldguy64 Oldguy64 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdhttr View Post
OldGuy we may have the same background re: a capella. I have the same experience with in-ear monitors which I'm constantly tweaking before and during the service.



I wasn't sure if this was about the tone of the instrument while also singing or the tone of the vocals. I play in my church's worship band which usually has 3-5 vocalists who rotate week to week, along with 6-7 instrumentalists. The instrumentalists and sound guys are constantly tweaking instrument tone, largely because of a different mix of players each week. However, I find myself tweaking the vocalists in my in-ear monitor for the same reason. Some vocalists blend better with other voices and instruments while others can be overpowering. It's not usually an issue of talent but more of tone and mix with other vocalists and the band. I don't think the sound guys spend as much time tweaking the vocals as they do the instruments because they often ask an instrumentalist to play solo so they can make adjustments, but they don't do that with vocalists. We do often include an a capella verse or two so I suppose that provides an opportunity to work on the blend.



Anyway, not to derail the thread, but I wonder if anyone spends as much time tweaking vocal tone and blend as they do instrumental.


I find two things to be true when I plug in to the Aviom.
1. All the settings are panned to the right.
2. The vocals are super loud.

And since, like you, we are a variety of musicians, we have to figure out where everyone is.
“I’m playing acoustic, am I in AG-1?”
“What channels are the vocals in, they’re blowing my head off”.
That’s the first fifteen minutes of rehearsal.

Then I spend the first song trying to get everyone’s volume to a level where I can hear them, and not kill my eardrums.
Then, I get myself loud enough for me to hear.
After all that, then I work on the tone I’d like.
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  #35  
Old 11-14-2018, 07:37 PM
C-ville Brent C-ville Brent is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guitar george View Post
I am not a very good singer so the guitar covers for that and I am not a very good guitar player so the singing covers for that. Together they don't sound too bad I am told. I am not trying to perfect any aspect of either. This would be true for many people, I presume.
Yea, what you said. I did a solo guitar/singer thing for several years. Ran my acoustic guitar through channels 2 and 3 (mic & sound hole pickup) and used a small powered Yamaha monitor to hear myself better. It's hard to be a perfectionist playing in a bar full of people so you try to sound the best you can because that's really all you can do. I'd set up early in the evening and make pa adjustments, then later mostly just volume adjustments.
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  #36  
Old 11-15-2018, 12:35 AM
CaptRedbeard CaptRedbeard is offline
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I've been at this singing and playing thing for well over 50 years which, I suppose, has gained me a certain amount of experience. An instrument like the piano not only provides the structure of a song but supports the singer. My guitar needs to be in tune and be responsive to my needs within the song. It, like the piano, moves the song along as I sing. When I want it to be loud, deep, and boisterous, I want it there without me thinking about. When I want it soft or light it still must project enough to be noticed. When it is just me or with one other person performing I like using a microphone for acoustic guitars as I can vary its impact on the songs.
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  #37  
Old 11-15-2018, 08:25 AM
musicman1951 musicman1951 is offline
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Reading over all the varied responses, it seems this is a comfort thing.

Some people are comfortable with whatever comes out of their fine instrument when they strum it. Some require a guitar with scooped mids to feel comfortable. Some like a guitar with little sustain, or not too much volume.

I think the style of music and the venue can have a pretty dramatic influence, as well as the qualities (volume/projection, deep or thin, etc.). If you're performing acoustically some things are way more critical that if you're singing into a PA. If you're strumming powerfully with a heavy pick it's considerably different than singing along with bare fingers and mostly arpeggios. If your singing for an audience that is mostly quiet and pays careful attention that requires more care than if you're trying to be heard in a noisy bar/restaurant.

Personally, I can't stand to finger pick a guitar with low sustain. I am more than uncomfortable, I am a little offended that someone produced such an instrument (yes I know, a little over the top). It might be the perfect guitar sonically for my voice performing a particular song with powerful strumming - but we'll never know. I could not possibly sing my best playing a guitar with a sound I didn't love.

So while I can see the logic of some choices, I think my bottom line is whatever makes you happy is a good choice. When all is said and done the job is to sell the song. The pieces all have to come together to make the magic.
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  #38  
Old 11-15-2018, 06:54 PM
BluesKing777 BluesKing777 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vindibona1 View Post



I am jealous of those who can sing and don't sent people running. My hearing is acute and pitch awareness is spot on, but I have to force my voice to find pitch centers and have almost no resonance. I just don't have the pipes, which is one of the greatest regrets of my life for which there is no fix. [Consequently I've never learned the lyrics to any songs post-Beatles except for the hooks :0 .] I wasn't aware of the VE8, but it looks exceptionally intriguing on many levels. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.




I saw you looked for a VE8 on another thread....

I did a little 'save' setup yesterday and in a mo, I will give it a test. (probably operator error in the early days of ownership but when I saved some setting I wanted, it altered when I turned the machine back on the next day - it put a chorus on my guitar! I haven't used chorus since about 1982, wore it out.)
But yesterday I did a save of the basic settings I use - on the guitar side, nothing, that I don't do externally, plain jane guitar IN, but on the vocal side I have small amounts of some reverb/delay/comp-EQ that I like.

So, I saved that as '1'.....

Added the single harmony vocal, saved that as '2'.

Added 2 harmony vocals, saved that as '3'.


I can do the plain settings on 'Manual' and press the button with my foot for the one harmony, but to alter the harmony settings in the middle of a song needs a stop in playing to lean down and change the knob.

Now with the saved settings above, I can do an intro and a verse or 2 in setting '1' and press the foot button to go to setting '2' with the harmony for a chorus, back to '1' for another verse....and then the tricky dancing feet part...skip across '2' to get to '3' for 2 harmony backups!


Easier to do that explain!

Of course, you can do way, way more complicated stuff than this, but..you know...


BluesKing777.
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  #39  
Old 11-15-2018, 09:25 PM
jim1960 jim1960 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jhmulkey View Post
I thought that's what he was referring to as I started to read the opening post, but I believe the OP is referring to the tone and balance of your guitar not your voice. I think the reasoning is that since the guitar is now accompaniment (less prominent) vs. an instrumental piece (more prominent), does that change the game a bit?
Yeah, you may be right. I thought he was asking if singers were as particular about the vocal mics they use as instrumentalists are about the instruments they use. I'll say this though, it took me a lot longer to find a vocal mic I love than it did to find a guitar I love.
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  #40  
Old 11-16-2018, 08:53 PM
BluesKing777 BluesKing777 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BluesKing777 View Post
I saw you looked for a VE8 on another thread....

I did a little 'save' setup yesterday and in a mo, I will give it a test. (probably operator error in the early days of ownership but when I saved some setting I wanted, it altered when I turned the machine back on the next day - it put a chorus on my guitar! I haven't used chorus since about 1982, wore it out.)
But yesterday I did a save of the basic settings I use - on the guitar side, nothing, that I don't do externally, plain jane guitar IN, but on the vocal side I have small amounts of some reverb/delay/comp-EQ that I like.

So, I saved that as '1'.....

Added the single harmony vocal, saved that as '2'.

Added 2 harmony vocals, saved that as '3'.


I can do the plain settings on 'Manual' and press the button with my foot for the one harmony, but to alter the harmony settings in the middle of a song needs a stop in playing to lean down and change the knob.

Now with the saved settings above, I can do an intro and a verse or 2 in setting '1' and press the foot button to go to setting '2' with the harmony for a chorus, back to '1' for another verse....and then the tricky dancing feet part...skip across '2' to get to '3' for 2 harmony backups!


Easier to do that explain!

Of course, you can do way, way more complicated stuff than this, but..you know...


BluesKing777.




FYI: Update.

I did save everything as described, turned everything off at the wall and the next day it still worked!

Must have been operator error that last time it didn’t work when trying it later...

The hard thing is to press the (foot) buttons while playing and singing preferably still in time! To use 5 or more different settings you have saved needs some delicate timing!

What does everyone else do with the ‘saving’ possiblities?



BluesKing777.
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  #41  
Old 11-17-2018, 12:01 AM
leehop71 leehop71 is offline
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I've been entertaining in retirement homes for 11 years and spent some time recording at home.

One interesting thing I discovered is that I sing much better when I'm playing as opposed to recording the guitar on one track and then singing along with the guitar on another track.

I had to tweak the pitch in my recording software all the time when I recorded vocals on a separate track.

Not sure why that is, but it was an interesting fact to discover.
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  #42  
Old 11-17-2018, 06:49 AM
The Bard Rocks The Bard Rocks is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leehop71 View Post
One interesting thing I discovered is that I sing much better when I'm playing as opposed to recording the guitar on one track and then singing along with the guitar on another track.

I had to tweak the pitch in my recording software all the time when I recorded vocals on a separate track.
.
You are obviously listening to your guitar and using what you hear to match the pitch. Ask me how I know; my pitch will be off unless I do this. For instance, I do not sing as well with a 12 string as I hear pitches an octave apart and , wanting to match onj or the other, sometimes don't do either.
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  #43  
Old 11-17-2018, 07:51 AM
leehop71 leehop71 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Bard Rocks View Post
You are obviously listening to your guitar and using what you hear to match the pitch. Ask me how I know; my pitch will be off unless I do this. For instance, I do not sing as well with a 12 string as I hear pitches an octave apart and , wanting to match onj or the other, sometimes don't do either.
Makes sense!
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  #44  
Old 11-17-2018, 10:05 AM
Spacep0d Spacep0d is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vindibona1 View Post
Are you as fussy about tone and balance as you might be if you were primarily an instrumentalist?

As an instrumentalist who dares not sing in public my guitar's sound is all I got. So I'm super fussy about the tone, balance and projection and am unapologetic about it. And so I'm wondering that if you are primarily a singer who uses guitar as accompaniment, is simply "good" good enough?
As a singer, I want a guitar which blends in nicely with my voice being more up-front in the mix, and I don't want the guitar too loud or harsh. I use body res on my T.C. Helicon Play Acoustic to smooth things out with the guitar, along with judicious use of tone and volume control. The Martin 000XAE Custom I have fits the bill perfectly. However, I've played guitars which I think have better tone for note-playing, but aren't as suited for strumming when I sing (such as the Taylor GS Mini-e Koa) as the Martin.
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