Keeping your left thumb behind the neck

[Cecil6243]

at all times for a typical right hand player...

My apologies if this has already been covered, but I don't see a search window here to determine that. If it has been covered, and you can direct me to the thread to prevent redundancy, that would be fine.

Otherwise if you keep you thumb behind the fretboard as a strict habit from the get go as a beginner, will it make you a better more accurate guitar player in the long run? Obviously a lot of great guitarists have no qualms about exposing their thumb are using it to fret chords. OTOH an instructor I had was dead set against it, and of course classical purists frown on not keeping the left thumb behind the neck.

And of course using the thumb for fretting on the sixth string with some chords is not uncommon among a lot of players. E.g. the D chord with an F # on the second fret 6th string, the Am chord with a G on the third fret sixth string, and the C chord adding a G on on third fret 6th string.

Or is this another one of those deals where it's simply up to the player and whether it's an advantage is controversial? Other then possibly more leverage on some chords directly behind the chord I wonder if there really is an advantage? Maybe classical purists don't like to see mother thumb hanging out with her four daughters?

Thoughts?

[rick-slo]

Search button is near the top and to mid right. You can pick a forum search or google search of the forum. For example I googled "thumb position neck" and it showed a number of forum threads on the topic.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by Cecil6243

Keeping your left thumb behind the neck…at all times for a typical right hand player...

…My apologies if this has already been covered, but I don't see a search window here to determine that. If it has been covered, and you can direct me to the thread to prevent redundancy, that would be fine.
…Or is this another one of those deals where it's simply up to the player and whether it's an advantage is controversial?

Thoughts?

Hi Cecil…
I'm thinking we are part of a forum where the main topic has already had more than 3.5 million posts, it's going to be impossible to sustain unique posts. It's been discussed before.

So let's chat…

I think you did hit a good answer with your suggestion that it's up to the player to determine whether it's a good solution for them, and if you state your preference, it may be 'controversial'.

As a teacher for 40 years, thumb placement came up in many lessons…

I'm not stuck in either camp.

• If you hand span is short, and your thumb cannot catch the lower strings then it's pretty easy to let it glide behind the neck most of the time.
• If your hand span is wide and your thumb long, you can fret multiple strings with it as you reach under/around the neck.
• If you are using your thumb as your main source for supporting the neck, it will likely impede your fluidity if you play more complex inside chords.
• I saw Tuck Andress fret a note on the first string with his thumb once…when asked why he responded "I was out of fingers to play the note."

I think never reaching around the neck is a popular thought in some camps.

[Cecil6243]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

Search button is near the top and to mid right. You can pick a forum search or google search of the forum. For example I googled "thumb position neck" and it showed a number of forum threads on the topic.

Thanks! I guess I was looking for an open box like in Google.

Gosh it's so obvious now!

[nightchef]

Originally Posted by Cecil6243

And of course using the thumb for fretting on the sixth string with some chords is not uncommon among a lot of players. E.g. the D chord with an F # on the second fret 6th string, the Am chord with a G on the third fret sixth string, and the C chord adding a G on on third fret 6th string.

It's times like this I know what small hands I really have. Are you saying there are people who can actually hit normal first position C and Am chords, i.e.

x32010
x02210

and then slap the thumb on the third fret 6th string? That's flat-out impossible for me, and I may have sustained minor damage to a ligament in my left thumb even trying.

[Gordon Currie]

Thumb behind the neck allows for a good arch to the left hand fingers. With a good arch, you are able to use more of your hand to counterbalance your fingers.

I especially notice it when using my pinky - which has become far more crucial than my ring finger.

It lets you fret with less 'finger-only' strength. This can pay huge dividends in speed, flexibility and endurance.

The problem I see is that, even though I picked up 'classical' thumb placement early on, it took DECADES for me to appreciate the value.

[NormanKliman]

I think it makes sense to keep your thumb behind the neck nearly always, especially when playing a standard-sized nylon-string guitar. Although it takes a few years to develop, it will give you a better fretting hand in terms of execution and span. If you’re going to play blues or something, especially on a steel-string, well that’s just the say it’s always been done. It’s hard to argue with the technique of Leo Kottke, for example, or the results of many great players. Nearly all the greats have played with the thumb wrapped around the neck at some point.

Originally Posted by Cecil6243

...of course classical purists frown on not keeping the left thumb behind the neck...

Originally Posted by Cecil6243

...Maybe classical purists don't like to see...

Flamenco too, and it's not about "purists" or being narrow-minded or anything like that. It just works better, at least on a standard-sized nylon-string guitar.

[Italuke]

Cecil, for steel string, no hard and fast rules.

I would ask, how good a non-classical PLAYER is/was your instructor?

[fazool]

Originally Posted by Cecil6243

...an instructor I had was dead set against it, and of course classical purists frown...

Every person has a different physical geometry so there is no "one rule". Some things can help and should be suggestions, such as "hey, its probably easier to play a guitar with two hands instead of one foot and one hand, if you can".

But I abhor when instructors and purists self-righteously proclaim that you must do something a particular way.

[perttime]

Fretting hand thumb behind the neck WORKS for most players, for most of their playing.

Even players like Jon Gomm who keep breaking all the "rules" do it sometimes, when it works best.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by nightchef

It's times like this I know what small hands I really have. Are you saying there are people who can actually hit normal first position C and Am chords, i.e.

x32010
x32210

and then slap the thumb on the third fret 6th string? That's flat-out impossible for me, and I may have sustained minor damage to a ligament in my left thumb even trying.

I have normal-sized hands (for an adult male) and -FWIW- I can do both those, even (with some effort!) on a full-width classical neck.

But it's obviously an idiotic way to get that bass G if you want it. I'd use four fingers for 302210, or 332010 (my normal preferred shape for C).
As for 332210, I've never had cause to play such a chord, but I just checked and found I can do it by barring fret 2 with my middle - with the tip of the finger behind the pinky on 5th string, it bends back enough to avoid the 2nd string.

Thumb on 6th would only be used for D/F#: 200232 - and that's a common shape, easily played by most people. Classical players wouldn't do it, of course - not because they physically couldn't (I certainly can), but because it's illegal in classical school. They get fined every time their thumb comes over the top, and three strikes and they're out.

[rllink]

I tended to let my thumb wander around wherever it wanted to go and my teacher was always reminding me to control it better with little success. But the last month he has been having me play lots of bar chords and they force my thumb back. It seems to have carried over to open chords and I'm finding that I'm keeping it behind the neck much more than I was before.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by rllink

I tended to let my thumb wander around wherever it wanted to go and my teacher was always reminding me to control it better with little success. But the last month he has been having me play lots of bar chords and they force my thumb back. It seems to have carried over to open chords and I'm finding that I'm keeping it behind the neck much more than I was before.

Just to repeat the reason that thumb behind is recommended:

It gives your fingers much more reach and freedom of movement in one neck position.

I.e., with thumb over, your palm tends to touch the neck, keeping the main part of your hand in a fixed position (holding the neck). With only the thumb touching the back, your whole hand is free to move, so your fingers can not only reach further round the neck and across the fretboard (and fret strings more effectively), they can reach further to lower and higher frets.

There's an additional reason with classical guitar, which is the wide flat neck - thumb-behind is simply more efficient, more ergonomic.

Steel-string guitars have narrower necks, often with a more rounded profile, which encourages the palm to grasp the neck. The fact the neck is narrow means the fingers can still reach well enough across the fretboard. But also, that playing position results in different styles and techniques. The thumb might often get used to fret or mute the 6th. If it lies on top of the neck, it can be used as leverage to bend strings, or add vibrato. And of course the thumb-behind position is still available when desired.

So - as I think we all agree! - the issue is governed by (a) what kind of guitar you're playing, and (b) what kind of music, or what specific tune you're playing.
There is no one best position that suits everything, and it would be a big mistake to fix your hand in any one particular, suppsedly "ideal", shape or position. It's about keeping all your options open - being aware of all those options! - while staying flexible and mobile, and choosing intelligently about which position to apply when.

[Don W]

My experience has been...if you are playing a classical guitar, especially, and you don't have your thumb placement in the middle or close to the center of the neck you simply don't have the reach and ability to transition to various shapes quickly. On my 1 3/4 nut acoustic its similar but not as critical. It isn't about what is correct or traditional so much as what is required to play well. I sat in a music shop one day and watched Tony McManus play" Prelude" and the "Chaconne" on a 1 3/4 nut acoustic...just an impromptu concert. I rarely saw his thumb come up around the neck. Astonishing speed and difficult transitions. My guitar instructor who was there said he is able to play like that due to perfect hand and body position (in addition to a million hours of practice).

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by Gordon Currie

Thumb behind the neck allows for a good arch to the left hand fingers. With a good arch, you are able to use more of your hand to counterbalance your fingers.

Hi Gordon

Arches are as useful when they are sometimes not as high…

I play fingerstyle, and often 'mute' strings intentionally with the pad of the finger I'm fretting the adjacent string with…especially when strumming & I want to eliminate notes (thin out the chord).

For example to play a standard Maj7th jazz chord using the Am shape on strings 2-3-4 (fretting with fingers 2-3-4) when the root is played by the index on string 6, I mute string 1 with the underside/pad of my index finger which arches over to play the root on string 6, and the pad of my index finger does double duty as it leans back and mutes string 5.

The arch is flattened to accommodate multiple tasks.

Standard fingering for GM7 chord…my thumb stays behind the neck



It's a moveable shape Maj7th chord with only 4 notes. So arching only enough to keep the fingerings 'clean' is aided by closing down the arch to play/mute creatively necessary chord voicings.



But, when I play a 2-finger-G chord (full sounding G without doubling the thirds of the chord) my thumb drifts to the edge with a very shallow arch.

I'm muting string 5 with the ring finger leaning backward (fingers 1-2 NOT touching strings) so a full arch is not possible.
The pinky, though arched extremely, is relaxed (that took some training).

I teach this a preferred strumming/picking G (even to beginners). It's less hand movement to change from this G to a C chord than with the traditional 3 finger G, and it sounds more balanced.

Even the Four-finger-G is more balanced (no doubled 3rds). Theory 101 teaches that doubling the third of a chord weakens it…but I digress.

So finger arches are adaptable, as are thumb positions. My thumb comes back to the middle of the underside just like my fingers return to the home-row-of-keys when I type. And when it's easily done, my fingers arch appropriately above the fingerboard…the harder the piece, the more exceptions.