What neck joint for 1st time builder?

[Davelebon]

What kind of neck joint did you use for your first build? By this point in my life, I have recognized that I am stubborn and the thought of a dovetail is really enticing to go after however I have heard that this is a really tough joint. I would love to do it but I have never built a guitar or completed a dovetail. Looking for some advice and what you guys did for your first builds.

[nikpearson]

I’ve been studying guitar-making for the last 3 years and the college tends to use the traditional classical guitar ‘solera’ method for both nylon and steel-string instruments. As with everything there are pros and cons.

The upsides are that it is relatively easy to ensure the neck geometry is good and the neck being integrated into the body as you build does make for a strong structure.

The downsides are that it is very difficult to reset the neck down the line if the geometry becomes a problem. The only viable ways being to add material under the fingerboard or to cut of the neck and rejoin with an alternative joint.

After looking at a variety of neck joints I’m rapidly coming to the conclusion that the best method is a bolt-on neck where both the heel and fingerboard are bolted to the main body of the guitar. For me the Spanish heel and dovetail methods are non-optimal although I’m sure many more experienced makers may disagree. The dovetail joint seems like a fudge to me: tricky to execute well and a pain to reset if needed.

I’m interested to hear opinions from some of the professional makers on this forum.

[mirwa]

Butt joint.

[Rodger Knox]

The butt joint is the most simple, but there's one thing that you may not realize. Almost everyone uses some type of jig to cut the neck joint, no matter what type of joint they use, so there's not that much difference in the difficulty of a bolt-on and dovetail.

[murrmac123]

Originally Posted by Rodger Knox

The butt joint is the most simple, but there's one thing that you may not realize. Almost everyone uses some type of jig to cut the neck joint, no matter what type of joint they use, so there's not that much difference in the difficulty of a bolt-on and dovetail.

You surprise me Rodger . I would suggest that there is a quantum leap in difficulty.

A mortise and tenon bolt on neck is a far easier proposition to do by hand than a dovetail neck.

[Rudy4]

I was faced many, many years ago with the same question.

I used the steel string acoustic guitar construction book written by Irving Sloane as a basic construction guide. The joint that he devised that beginners would understand and be able to execute properly was a mortise and tenon that locked in with sections of angled dowel on each side. The joint is actually brilliant, as it is designed to pull the heel tightly to the body as it is assembled, and also to lock the tenon and mortise together.

Find the book and use the joint. It really is a brilliant solution to building when you don't have the experience to do a "proper" dovetail.

My first steel string was made about 30 years ago and is still rock solid today.

I've also built a bunch of instruments with mortise and tenon that use a 1/4" by 20 bolt attachment. That works very well and it makes the neck easily removable. If you go that route I can advise inserting a barrel nut internally in the heel instead of the inserts that are driven into the end grain of the heel.

[redir]

The first ones I ever did were traditional Spanish foot joints where the sides fit right into the head block / neck assembly. Not the greatest idea for a steel string though it's been done many times. I then did a few dovetails and now almost exclusively use a bolt on butt joint. I'm of the opinion that is a lot easier then a dovetail too. People do jig up their dovetail joints and done right that will make it a LOT easier. I cut mine by hand. With the butt joint the only jig I have is a belt sander, a flat sanding board and a square to check htat everything is true.

[Rodger Knox]

Originally Posted by murrmac123

You surprise me Rodger . I would suggest that there is a quantum leap in difficulty.

A mortise and tenon bolt on neck is a far easier proposition to do by hand than a dovetail neck.

I'll agree it is much more difficult to hand cut a dovetail than a mortise and tenon, I was referring to difficulty between the two if jigs are used. I've only done one dovetail neck, and the dovetail was cut by hand. I typically use Cumpiano's bolted M&T joint, and it is significantly easier to cut by hand.

I'm just guessing about the difficulty using jigs, since I've never done either one using a jig.

[phavriluk]

This is a topic that can keep folks gathered around the hot stove all winter long...I think there's not an ascending scale of quality of results, at the end of the day if the neck's in the right place, it was a workable installation.

My personal opinion: The emphatic and unproven ballyhoo about the purity and necessity of dovetail necks does first-time builders no end of bad. There's lots more for an early builder to worry about before trying to accurately align a two-piece joint of something with no square corners and no right angles.

Having said that, I encourage OP to do some studying of his own and grazing around. Collings and Bourgeois show pictures of their neck installations, no hidden secrets with these folks.

I have used very happily the installation hardware kit from Luthier's Cool Tools. The hardware comes with a complete set of step-by-step instructions. One router template needs to be made, and anybody with a milling machine can make one easily.

[Imbler]

My classicals I build with the integral heel and the sides fitting into slots. It is pretty easy to set the neck angle, but as noted above neck re-sets are difficult. But classicals rarely need them.

For my steelstrings, I use mortice and tenon joined with two bolts going into barrel nuts. With the proper jig, I find this very simple to get the neck geometry correct, and there are real advantages in carving the neck separately from the body, and finishing neck and body separately.

But I think it is really a matter of personal preference as people seem to make all the variations work, and most find their chosen method to be the "simplest"!

[charles Tauber]

I think the best choice will be based on what tools you have and what type of neck body joint you think is best.

A Spanish heel might be easiest, but is a poor choice based on longevity - you won’t be very happy when it comes time for a neck reset. One approach is to make a joint that gets the job done - any of the methods mentioned so far will do that. Another approach is to learn to make the kind of joint you think is best and what you would aspire to make ultimately- start off making the kind of joint you’d like to have.

If I was just starting now, I’d learn to make an adjustable-angle neck joint, one that could easily allow the neck angle to be adjusted on the fly. The simplest variation of that is Taylor’s neck arrangement, an integral neck/fingerboard assembly that attaches as a unit to the body.

An argument can certainly be made to start off with more traditional joining methods, but it makes sense to me to start with the best of the technologies/methods. (Keep in mind that the earliest adjustable neck attachments go back to the 1800’s).

[Halcyon/Tinker]

I transitioned from dovetail, to m&t, to double m&t, to m&t glued tongue, to bolt on butt joint glued tongue which I had intended only for my ‘cheap’ guitars, but which I like so much I use it on everything.

I see no downside to it that’s not a paper downside, but that’s just me.

[amohr]

Good advise from Halcyon/Tinker...I know Goodall uses butt joint too. I am on my #4 and #5 guitars using same method, I find it easy to set neck angle that way, butt thats just me no pun intended. I do build ukulele's with mortise and tenon, I feel the small surface area denotes such a connection.

[MC5C]

I've built 6 guitars, all archtops so I don't have to worry about the fingerboard extension. I've done both hand cut and router/jig cut dovetails, as standalone projects so that I could learn the techniques involved, but for actual guitars I use a mortise and tenon with a single bolt. I make a 1" wide, 1/2" deep tenon on the neck, and cut a tightly fitted matching mortise, and I locate the single 1/4" furniture bolt (big head) allen bolt low on the joint, about 1/3 or the way up from the back. I've done them with the bolt installed from the inside, and I have a long allen wrench that I made, and I've done them with the bolt as a visual design/style point on the outside of the heel - way easier and the way I will go in future. I use a mortise and tenon simply to have a solid location reference to maintain the center line, side to side and twist location of the neck over time. I currently cut the tenon on a table saw or a router jig, both are very easy, and I have cut the body mortise with handsaw and chisel, and with a router jig. Oddly perhaps, I built the body router jig to learn how to do a dovetail joint, and just used it for the mortise because it was there and easy to use. Same jig, just slightly different sized templates on top. I would say with the two jigs there is no difference in difficulty doing either a M/T or a dovetail, just perhaps 15 minutes longer in setup and fine tuning for the dovetail. Actually doing the neck set, getting height, extension fit, neck angle and cheek fit right takes the same amount of time, and is far more difficult than cutting the joint in the first place.

Edit: two other structural reasons I use a tenon on the neck. One, I like to have a quite thin heel, only 1/2" or less thick, and that would be quite thin on it's own for strength reasons, and not much depth to install a threaded insert. Second, I glue the typical archtop fretboard extension on using a 1/2" rabbet into the neck, and the tenon adds significant support and strength to that joint.

[Bruce Sexauer]

The beautiful thing about the dovetail joint is that at no point are you fully committed to the guitar’s geometry until you actually “land” it. The process is all about incremental adjustment. The ideas that it is difficult comes largely from people who are intimidated by it, and rarely from those of us who actually use it. It’s,not as though traditional guitar makers settled on a neck attachment system BECAUSE it is difficult, but rather because it is a VERY workable solution. Also, once the neck is “landed”, the joint is very reliable long term. No other solution approaches the dovetail for aesthetic elegance and that seems important to me.