For luthiers....

[hopkinWFG]

wonder what tone is that individual builders or luthiers out there having in mind which to achieve ? any bench mark and expectations out from any builders or luthiers when getting an acoustic done ? sorry to anyone who find my post rude and disturbing .. but am sure we are all looking at in terms of tone quality + playability and comfort ..

[CoolerKing]

Not rude at all. I'm not a luthier, but have built a few for fun.

As a gross oversimplification, the individual luthiers either shoot for vintage or modern sound. Vintage would be this:

http://youtu.be/7kivazmMrIE

Modern would be this:

http://youtu.be/PxLUs3ZJeig

[Lespaul123]

For me, its not about my specific tone, but more about fulfilling what my customer may be after. Now, I know that I may have a propensity to build towards a certain style, but for the most part my goal is my customers goal regarding tone. Of course everyone is shooting for a high quality, sound, look, feel, etc. I don't think any specific builder is able to identify this about their work. People seem to perceive what they are doing or their goals as the best option otherwise they wouldn't be doing it. One person`s high quality finish may look like plastic to another. I think every builder`s goal is to build the best instrument they can and make their customer(s) happy. Now whether the best instrument is to replicate old martins or build complete ergo cnc guitars is something that the builder seems to almost unconsciously decide. For me, the only way to determine what you think is best is to research other builders, play other instruments, and listen to the overall consensus of the players. You may have an opinion regarding one tone or another but this opinion is not more valuable than the player`s opinion because they are the ones that live with the instrument. If you come up with something that you like, I suggest handing it to as many people as you can to get their prospective on it. They are the market and it is easy to fall in love with your own ideas, but you may be an extreme outlier. Now thinking more about it, maybe I am more about the people and this could limit me. Maybe a person who builds the best instruments in their eyes and does not deviate based on the opinions of others will become more successful. He or she could change the overall opinion of the community to liking their idea. I suppose there is no formula.

[redir]

A lot of it depends on what style of playing you want but for me personally I like sustain and rich overtones in a guitar and I feel I get that when I build real light. For classic guitars my bench mark guitars are from old Segovia recordings I have. Of course his playing has a lot to do with it but you can hear a richness, power, sustain and overtones in those guitars... It's very Spanish sounding if that makes sense. I've built 'modern' classical guitars and even double tops and they just don't have that traditional Spanish sound in my mind.

As for steel strings I don't want to hear a booming Martin style guitar and tend to prefer the smaller body more balanced sounding guitars that can really take a beating with the picking hand.

This is not an easy thing to explain.

[B. Howard]

Ah, the topic of tone....What is tone? It is something that is purely etherical. It cannot be measured or quantified. There are no scientific tests to confirm it's existence or quality. It is solely a construct of the mind that perceives it. Discussing tone always comes down to a conversation that is analogous to deciding which is the best flavor of ice cream. I gladly pass on those commissions where the client is obsessed with tone as I cannot guarantee creamy overtones, warm bass, or shimmer.......

Every competent Luthier's instruments should have a particular "sound" to them. They should be fairly consistent within that especially after one considers the effects of different woods, ie Rosewood will sound different than Mahogany, Sitka will sound different than Engleman. When considering a custom guitar if you are playing a certain makers instrument and find yourself asking if he/she can make it sound "darker" or "more transparent" you probably need to keep looking because that persons sound is not the one you want, no matter how in love you may be with the aesthetics.

I concentrate on the things I actually have control over when building. Things like sustain, response, decay. These are things that are built into a guitar when the top is thicknessed, the bracing shaped, the neck angle set. If you like my overall sound I can help guide you in the selection of the proper tone woods to create a guitar that will fulfill your wants and needs sonically and aesthetically. I also put forth great effort in the area of playability and comfort for the individual player. Guitars that play easier are more enjoyable to play and tend to bring forth the best in the musician which gives a better perception of "tone" not just to the player themselves but the audience as well in large part to the enthusiasm created in the musician by the instrument.

[KingCavalier]

Well said Brian, I see it the same way. I'm currently build a Martin OM copy. My goal is for it to sound like an OM. I think body shape and size are a major factor in the way a Guitar will sound. If I want my Guitar to sound like a Dread I'll build a Dread and so on. The things I try to control are just like Brian said, sustain, response, decay. The subtle differences we achieve with "tone wood" are just that. I think it's always going to be the body shape and size that dictate the out come.

SA

[Ned Milburn]

Power (overall volume)
Richness (fullness) of overtones (ie: how easily can overtones be made (harmonics) and can you hear the harmonics when playing an open string?)
Balance - volume is the same when playing up and down a string or across the fingerboard
Attack - the initial wave of air that plucking a string makes
Body/sustain
Responsiveness - How easily does the guitar produce a mf or forte tone?

These are the attributes that I use to judge guitars. Not much subjective about it, but it is easiest to measure "comparatively" rather than "absolutely".

Guitars with different balances of harmonics and sustain can be either well-suited or ill-suited for certain styles. For example, consider (or google) the difference in sound between "classical" and "flamenco" guitars. Consider too, the differences needed for fingerstyle acoustic guitar versus fast-picking bluegrass.

[Earwitness]

Originally Posted by matthewpartrick

Not rude at all. I'm not a luthier, but have built a few for fun.

As a gross oversimplification, the individual luthiers either shoot for vintage or modern sound. Vintage would be this:

http://youtu.be/7kivazmMrIE

Modern would be this:

http://youtu.be/PxLUs3ZJeig

That sure makes me wish I could play Rain Song.
I have to start alt tunings sometime, right?

[hopkinWFG]

Originally Posted by matthewpartrick

Not rude at all. I'm not a luthier, but have built a few for fun.

As a gross oversimplification, the individual luthiers either shoot for vintage or modern sound. Vintage would be this:

http://youtu.be/7kivazmMrIE

Modern would be this:

http://youtu.be/PxLUs3ZJeig

wow in my opinion the demo Pete thorn done is superb ! like the tone of the modern ...

would that be the holy grail of the modern acoustic tone?
haha first time knowing more about acoustic thru your guidance here indeed as i didnt know about modern or vintage sounding tone of an acoustic ..

[hopkinWFG]

Hi Brian.. glad to have you here giving off your honest views and thoughts on your experiences on acoustic guitar.. i guess acoustic are different than electric where not all of the tone comes off from the wood but the bridges, nut and pickups you have on an electric..

but i guess i am wrong again based on what you mentioned... so even for acoustic the kind of woods used is still not being much influenced on the tone ?

lets put in an assumption that we have all the same tone wood, density and how well the wood is aged and dry... if setted in differently it will then sound different?

and how different are we to look at if a similar guitar being setted in an identical manner but with a different set of tone wood... for example an all mahogany acoustic with rosewood fretboard vs a all indian rosewood build ?

Just how great the differences would be having to take considerations from a comparison point of view which is construction, how its being setted in the way and woods which distinguish from hardwood and softwood...

Originally Posted by B. Howard

Ah, the topic of tone....What is tone? It is something that is purely etherical. It cannot be measured or quantified. There are no scientific tests to confirm it's existence or quality. It is solely a construct of the mind that perceives it. Discussing tone always comes down to a conversation that is analogous to deciding which is the best flavor of ice cream. I gladly pass on those commissions where the client is obsessed with tone as I cannot guarantee creamy overtones, warm bass, or shimmer.......

Every competent Luthier's instruments should have a particular "sound" to them. They should be fairly consistent within that especially after one considers the effects of different woods, ie Rosewood will sound different than Mahogany, Sitka will sound different than Engleman. When considering a custom guitar if you are playing a certain makers instrument and find yourself asking if he/she can make it sound "darker" or "more transparent" you probably need to keep looking because that persons sound is not the one you want, no matter how in love you may be with the aesthetics.

I concentrate on the things I actually have control over when building. Things like sustain, response, decay. These are things that are built into a guitar when the top is thicknessed, the bracing shaped, the neck angle set. If you like my overall sound I can help guide you in the selection of the proper tone woods to create a guitar that will fulfill your wants and needs sonically and aesthetically. I also put forth great effort in the area of playability and comfort for the individual player. Guitars that play easier are more enjoyable to play and tend to bring forth the best in the musician which gives a better perception of "tone" not just to the player themselves but the audience as well in large part to the enthusiasm created in the musician by the instrument.

[CoolerKing]

I know that Wingert/Thorn video is mesmerizing.

[clinchriver]

Originally Posted by B. Howard

Ah, the topic of tone....What is tone? It is something that is purely etherical. It cannot be measured or quantified. There are no scientific tests to confirm it's existence or quality. It is solely a construct of the mind that perceives it. Discussing tone always comes down to a conversation that is analogous to deciding which is the best flavor of ice cream. I gladly pass on those commissions where the client is obsessed with tone as I cannot guarantee creamy overtones, warm bass, or shimmer.......

Every competent Luthier's instruments should have a particular "sound" to them. They should be fairly consistent within that especially after one considers the effects of different woods, ie Rosewood will sound different than Mahogany, Sitka will sound different than Engleman. When considering a custom guitar if you are playing a certain makers instrument and find yourself asking if he/she can make it sound "darker" or "more transparent" you probably need to keep looking because that persons sound is not the one you want, no matter how in love you may be with the aesthetics.

I concentrate on the things I actually have control over when building. Things like sustain, response, decay. These are things that are built into a guitar when the top is thicknessed, the bracing shaped, the neck angle set. If you like my overall sound I can help guide you in the selection of the proper tone woods to create a guitar that will fulfill your wants and needs sonically and aesthetically. I also put forth great effort in the area of playability and comfort for the individual player. Guitars that play easier are more enjoyable to play and tend to bring forth the best in the musician which gives a better perception of "tone" not just to the player themselves but the audience as well in large part to the enthusiasm created in the musician by the instrument.

I totally agree with Brian, the "modern" sound Wingert? Really nice but it sounds new to me the chords sound fine the single lines (the few he played) sounded kind of thin that guitar needs a lot of playing and it will be a monster. The OOO