Emerald Carbon vs Carbon + Veneer

[GuitarLuva]

Originally Posted by Jimmy Koh

I doubt removing the electronic will make much difference.

When I removed the element UST in my X30 it was a night and day difference.

[byudzai]

Originally Posted by raysachs

He'll probably chime in here at some point, but Alex (byudzai) has twin X30s, one with veneer and one raw carbon. I think the veneer has some custom touches like pinless bridge, but I think all of the dimensions are basically the same, so it should be apples to apples. He initially thought he heard some difference, but over time it disappeared. Here's a link to a post where he answered my question on the same topic. I was considering a newer generation X7 and wasn't sure whether I wanted to spring for the veneer. I did, and I'm glad I did because it's a guitar I can tell is a lifetime instrument, could well end up being my ONLY acoustic at some point, and it's nice to have one that looks as nice as it plays and sounds.

https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/...4&postcount=62

-Ray

This was my experience. When I replaced strings at the same time, I could hear no difference in tone despite a full day of playing every different which way.

[ac]

When was the T8 last produced? It seems it was several years ago and only produced for a short time, compared with the other models.

I think Emerald has revamped almost all it's current line since that time and has gained a great deal more experience, especially with veneers. In the past, it seems to me there were few veneers produced in comparison with today, but I may be wrong.

That time span between older and the current models, the never-ending improvements in design, together may be a big factor in explaining the differences players are experiencing.

[benderman57]

I owned at the same time an X20 plain black carbon Artisan and my newer X20 Cocobolo Artisan. The only difference was the pickup with the stock X20 still sporting a Bband system and the Cocobolo having the Baggs Element system both with Barn Door preamps.

Did a little shootout with them and a couple of my picker friends before I sold off the standard x20. With identical strings brands and both put on new some of us thought we heard a little difference some of us thought they were too close to call really.


Not scientific at all but we all agreed if there was and difference it was very minimal.

[mot]

Originally Posted by Res Ipsa

“If you don't believe your eyes can change how you think you hear something, look up McGurk effect as something that can happen to you.“ -Mot

One of the things I love about this CF forum is embodied in this quote. The McGurk Effect is fascinating - hadn’t heard of it until now, and looked into it. No pun intended. I may never again say “I see what you’re saying” without wondering if what I’m “hearing” is in line with what I’m “seeing”. Cool stuff that McGurk. Thanks, Mot.

Not to be confused with hearsay.

Thank you for the callout.

Amongst some of the subjects I teach, such as experimental design and analyses, bias often (actually always) plays a role as an unwanted (and often significant) factor. Bias is insidious in that often the experimenter doesn't and may never realize they are sometimes affected or swayed inappropriately in how they view their outcomes.

Bias comes in many forms and any discussion involving a particular bias is often overly controversial, so I use the McGurk effect to illustrate to show even the most stubborn person who believes they have no bias that their senses may often lie to them.

Back to the Emeralds - there may be a difference but I didn't hear it with my eyes closed.

[Puerto Player]

Originally Posted by ac

I would think the fact that your woody is a short-scale would influence the perception of the sound more than the extremely thin veneer would.

It could be the short scale, but I have a Gibson SJ-185EC and Gibson EC20, which is pretty much the same guitar, with the EC20 being a short scale. The two guitars sound almost identical.

The sound on my Woody isn't near as loud or as clear, I've gone through a lot of different strings and that does make a difference, but the guitar still isn't close to the standard X20. They both have the same electronics, and the electronics amplify exactly what I'm hearing acoustically. I still love the guitar and play it daily, even over my Goodall, but all the tone/3D isn't there.

I had a Cargo raw and a Cargo white. I think the extra coating darkened the sound and lessened the projection. I liked the sound better with coating.

[Jimmy Koh]

Originally Posted by ac

When was the T8 last produced? It seems it was several years ago and only produced for a short time, compared with the other models.

I think Emerald has revamped almost all it's current line since that time and has gained a great deal more experience, especially with veneers. In the past, it seems to me there were few veneers produced in comparison with today, but I may be wrong.

That time span between older and the current models, the never-ending improvements in design, together may be a big factor in explaining the differences players are experiencing.

The T8 Opus was produced in 2013. I love it, so much so that I started looking for another T8. I found another identical Opus T8, same Color and all. But the soundboard of the second one was slightly thick, and I experienced the compressed tone with the second one.

When I saw a lefty Opus T8 was on sale in eBay in 2017, I contacted Emerald, but was told the lefty was sold, and they could build me a brand new T8 Woody Opus (glossy TOP and neck, matte side and back), with Sean promising me that the tone would be same as my 2013 Opus.

So I sold the 2nd T8, and confirmed the deal of the new 2017 Opus Woody.

Mind you I played my first Opus at least two hours every night. So when the Woody arrived, at first strum/pick, the tone was different - I can tell. And I began to look into the details that caused the tonal difference. All saddles heights were adjusted and equalled, same new strings, with reference from family members as audience - the Woody is not as loud and as projected as the Opus. I use a Korg soundhole pitchclip, it can fit easily into the Opus just like any other wooden acoustic guitar, but not on the 2017 Woody.

I am holding on to the two T8s as I wrote this text now. One may think that my expectations for any CF guitar builder is high. The Woody T8 is good, it serves its function, aesthetically and tonally with a flexibility for stage use. But the 2013 Opus is just different. Maybe it’s the “one that slipped out of the builder’s vault”. But the verdict is here - there is a significant difference in soundboard and tonal thickness between the 2013 and 2017 builds, and these are very evident on smaller guitars like the T8.

For those who stand by the fact that there is no difference between a Opus and a Woody Emerald, all I can say is, the Opus could have a soundboard thickness as thick as the Woody one.

On the subject of creating a tone on a brand new guitar similar to the Emerald you already have? I think it is possible, but at the high expense of shipping your existing guitar to Emerald to replicate. It will never be possible with a promise over the phone/email. Again, these guitars are created from hand, therefore uniformity and consistency is never a given.