$10,000+ Greenfield guitars have laminated sides

Originally Posted by Tico

What if it sounded better to you, however you define that?

That's an entirely different question.

You asked why Martin and Taylor don't use laminated sides. The answer, beyond the cost, is that it pushes the tone outside the footprint of the historic tone of those brands. It's like asking why doesn't Gibson try to make the J-45 sound more like a D-28? Why would they? They're selling J-45's, not D-28's. The same logic applies to laminated sides.

[Tico]

Originally Posted by Todd Yates

That's an entirely different question.

You asked why Martin and Taylor don't use laminated sides. The answer, beyond the cost, is that it pushes the tone outside the footprint of the historic tone of those brands. It's like asking why doesn't Gibson try to make the J-45 sound more like a D-28? Why would they? They're selling J-45's, not D-28's. The same logic applies to laminated sides.

Never mind.

[mcduffnw]

Originally Posted by Tico

Never mind.

No Tico...not Never mind

What Todd was trying to very politely imply, is that many people...players and listeners alike...prefer the vintage Martin and Gibson tone...I believe that Todd is certainly in that camp...over the more modern fingerstyle geared tone/voicing of the builders like Ervin, and Jason, and Michael.

For the types of music...bluegrass, old timey Americana Folk, old time, and new time Country and Western...that many folks like Todd love to play and listen to, the vintage Martin and Gibson tone IS the sound that they like and prefer.

And if you ever get to hear, in person, a really really superb sounding vintage Martin D-18, D-28, or D-45, from the 30's or early 40's, or a 30's or 40's Gibson AJ, you will truly come to understand what all the "buzz" is all about. Even if the tone is not your ideal...the power and volume, and dynamic response of these guitars is really nothing short of remarkable. Once piece sides and backs and all.

And I say that as a player who prefers the more modern tone/voicing instead of the vintage tone...but...I am still extremely impressed with the voice these mighty guitars have.

duff


duff

[CitizenAudio]

As someone who is traversing into the bespoke world, this thread was incredible! This educated me a ton! Thanks!

[The Bard Rocks]

Originally Posted by JSDenvir

There are a number of reasons to laminate sides, reasons that have nothing to do with "budget" guitars.

Some builders want extremely stiff sides, so as to allow the top and back to work together without interference from the sides. Call that the "drum" model.

Some are trying to salvage a great set of wood. What do you do if you have a set of Brazilian, but the sides are too thin or unstable?

And some figured woods just don't want to bend. Or rather, they don't want to bend at a thickness that will make for stable construction. So they need to be thinned, bent, and then laminated to a stable substrate.

So laminated sides are not at all uncommon in the custom guitar market.

Laminated tops, on the other hand, you probably want to stay away from :-)

Steve

This is what I would have said only Steve beat me to it. I have owned 2 laminated sides custom-made guitars and there was nothing the least inferior about either one.

[Dustinfurlow]

Super educational thread!! Big thanks to Jason for that long post and everyone who shared experiences. I’ve only played a few double-sided guitars (3 previous Somogyi apprentice builds and a couple nice McGreevy OM’s) and they all blew me away.

When Donal McGreevy explained why he liked them he said mostly so he could get his tops a bit thinner and more responsive to a light touch and open up the bass response.

I’m curious if any builders could chip in as to whether or not it also adds tuning-stability? Maybe in the same way a 5-piece neck might help? I might be spreading misinformation by assuming those can be beneficial, but as a fingerstylist who changes from CGDGCD to DADGAD to standard I’m curious if the double sides might help keep the guitar in tune more efficiently, possibly? Always a bother to have to readjust the middle strings which I rarely change the pitch of intentionally.

[AndrewG]

Originally Posted by Larry Pattis

Where to begin...?

Okay, just to throw one of the more well-known names out there (and one of the biggest price tags, as well), the starting price for an Ervin Somogyi guitar is currently $35,000. All of Ervin's guitars are laminated sides, and this has been true for at least 15 years...maybe longer. Nearly all Ervin's former apprentices (a 2-year, old world apprenticeship) use laminated sides, and many of these builders are quite well known...in the world of handcrafted guitars.

The most well-known right now (and most sought after luthier on the planet) could possibly be Jason Kostal, and I'm guessing Jason has a 5+ year wait-list right now. Maybe longer. Maybe much longer.

My friend and top-builder Simon Fay uses laminated sides.

The laminated sides the OP thinks about on the lesser-quality production model guitars bear no resemblance to the lamination process (nor results in rim-stiffness) used by the *many* top-shelf builders across the world...for steel-string *and* classical guitars.

This is all common knowledge in the building and playing community for high end guitars, and dozens (if not hundreds) of examples of these builds can be found/seen right here on the AGF in the Custom Shop sub-forum.

I apologize for my initial use of the word "ignorance"...although that post has now been deleted, apparently.

I should have said "lack of knowledge".

They both mean the same thing, but the reader can easily confuse my directness for negativity. I too am ignorant on many things in our world.

The bottom line is that this kind of build process has been used by a large number of top-shelf acoustic guitar builders for much more than a decade.

I won't go into the physics or theories behind what stiffer rims create on a handcrafted guitar, as this is just *one* feature of how/why the world of handcrafted guitars delivers a better sounding instrument (by and large) than what a production-line instrument can deliver.







I don't know if this was supposed to be facetious, but a handcrafted double-top (laminated, but not the way you think) will also come from some of the top small-shops across the world, in both the classical and steel-string worlds.

Yes, Australian luthier Greg Smallman employs laminated tops on his eye-wateringly expensive classical guitars. John Williams plays them.

[Dustinfurlow]

Btw for anyone interested (with a ton of cash to spare), Brooke’s Greenfield is for sale currently...funny coincidence.

https://reverb.com/item/25973570-greenfield-g2

[PaulRF]

Originally Posted by RodB

My Taran guitar has laminated sides I'm pleased to say - You might be interested to read the last paragraph of this: http://www.taranguitars.co.uk/about/construction

Those are some great looking instruments.

Paul

[Wolfram]

A fascinating discussion - albeit revived from 2017!

I own the first Model L (modified dreadnought) built by Tom Sands. Tom builds these guitars with triple sides!



He gives a very brief mention to them in this short video:



Cheers,
David

[JJI]

My Halland is also triple laminated...that said, Gage is a direct Greenfield descendant.

IMG_4283.jpg3C4A9794.jpg

[gitarro]

I believe Taran Guitars also have an option where the luthier will build triple sides also. N K Forster had gone even further than that by actually building rims made of some non-wood material that is totally rigid.

[acro]

Originally Posted by Tico

Kudos to the man for being brave enough to think for himself in a field where most fear bucking tradition.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAeXskZHC2o

FF to 1:00 to hear Mr. Greenfield explain and show the laminations of his guitar sides.

I always thought solid sides were best, and only the cheapest guitars had laminated sides.
Who knew?

Thank you for sharing.I have a new understanding what a true handmade guitar is.

[terken]

Another builder here that made the switch to double sides six or seven years ago. Usually similar woods, although Maple with a Rosewood inner side has been particularly well received. Final thickness around .125. Bonding agent is important I think. Unibond 800 which I use dries hard like glass which I think is good as there is some minor gap filling that happens at glue up.

I really like the effect, especially with Mahogany and Maple guitars. They are louder and seem to have kind of an edge to the sound that people like. They have been consistently well received by almost everyone that plays them.

I have not used them on Brazilian instruments so far and have been more impressed with their effect on Mahogany and Maple vs Rosewoods.

You can go too far. I had a classical in a while back, built in the 80’s, that had double sides with a layer of lead mesh epoxied between them. It was LOUD, but the tone was unappealing.

Bottom line for me with my experience and feedback from good players is that I have become a huge fan for Mahogany (same wood) and Maple with a Rosewood inner side, and undecided on Rosewoods.

As always, you just play the guitar and if it speaks to you go for it, if not try something else. Double sides are just one factor in an incredibly complex equation.

For me I will probably never build another Mahogany or Maple guitar without them.

Terry Kennedy

[ALBD]

Originally Posted by Dustinfurlow

I’m curious if any builders could chip in as to whether or not it also adds tuning-stability? Maybe in the same way a 5-piece neck might help? I might be spreading misinformation by assuming those can be beneficial, but as a fingerstylist who changes from CGDGCD to DADGAD to standard I’m curious if the double sides might help keep the guitar in tune more efficiently, possibly? Always a bother to have to readjust the middle strings which I rarely change the pitch of intentionally.

I’m not a builder but own a Kostal 00 and it is extremely stable holding a tuning. I’m not sure it has to do with the sides but it’s ability to hold a tuning string to string and seemingly never budge is pretty remarkable.