#16
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I tune a semitone sharp and leave them overnight before tuning to pitch.
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NOT from Queen - he's much cleverer I am English, so are all my spellings Two guitars I'm happy with . . . |
#17
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Thanks Charles. That is interesting. The slow creep of a particular winding point towards the peg until an equilibrium / stasis. Now I have another way to see when I loan a newly strung up guitar out how many hours of play it gets. or A new way to get to know what strings stretch faster than others. |
#18
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This has been raised before, and it seems to me that if the string was incapable of stretching "because it is metal" then it would not be suitable for a guitar string, lacking tensile strength.
Lacking tensile strength, it would seem to me that the string would be too brittle and would simply break. I understand that some, perhaps even most, of the 'settling in' is due to the wraps on the tuning post snugging up, but in my experience, the string also stretches, as it does with my electrics that have locking tuners and no more than 1/2 a wrap around the post...they still require some tugging to get them to stay in pitch.
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#19
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From our arm chairs, shall we next debate whether or not heavier objects fall faster than lighter ones?
Elastic deformation, plastic deformation, work hardening, elastic limits, yield strength, ultimate strength for metals are all well documented science. It isn't a question of who's opinion we prefer. I offered a simple experiment that you can perform on your own instruments to easily confirm what science has figured out. If you are interested, here is a video of standard tensile test for metals. Note the localized change in diameter/cross section - "necking" - that occurs after yield (into plastic deformation territory) and prior to failure (breaking). A similar rig is used to determine the tensile strength of steel strings/cables. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67fSwIjYJ-E |
#20
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That depends on what you mean by "stretch". A string under tension is longer and thinner than it would be without. How much longer depends on Young's modulus, and how much thinner depends on Poisson's ratio, along with the tension and cross sectional area of the string.
Initially, it acts just like a spring, stretching a little in response to the tension, and then returning to it's original length when the tension is removed. This is known as elastic deformation, and is a property of materials. All materials exhibit this behavior to some degree. As tension increases, it reaches a point where the string will not stretch any further. This is the elastic limit. Once the elastic limit is exceeded, one of two things will happen. A brittle material, like glass or cast iron, will break. A more flexible material, like rubber or steel, will continue to stretch, but it will no longer return to it's original length when the tension is removed, some of the deformation is permanent. That is known as plastic deformation. Music wire is relatively brittle, so it usually breaks without much plastic deformation. If "stretch" means elastic deformation, yes strings stretch. If stretch means plastic deformation, then they may stretch a little, but will more likely break.
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#21
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Reading this thread seriously made my head hurt. Now all you engineer guys know why my degree is in English. LOL
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#22
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I've not heard this theory before, but there could certainly be some truth in what you have written. Then again, I have been avoiding this kind of discussion lately. I should have stayed out of it. However, this comment is just plain wrong: "New strings are at the highest tension then lose tension as they age!" They can't lose tension unless the player decides not to tune the guitar. - Glenn
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#23
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Metal strings are elastic and will stretch under tension. This may be minimal with guitar strings, as their strength is sufficient to accommodate the required tension, but they will stretch. If this is correct, then the statement that "new strings are at their highest tension" would be correct if you accounted for string length. New strings are at their shortest length while providing the required tension. As they age under tension, length will increase, and the slack will be taken up at the tuning pegs. Is this correct? |
#24
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Best, PJ
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It turned out to be a pretty cool thread! Science is fun!
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#26
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Derek Coombs Youtube -> Website -> Music -> Tabs Guitars by Mark Blanchard, Albert&Mueller, Paul Woolson, Collings, Composite Acoustics, and Derek Coombs "Reality is that which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." Woods hands pick by eye and ear
Made to one with pride and love To be that we hold so dear A voice from heavens above |
#27
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An old string should be no longer than a new string unless that old string has been exposed to stress beyond the material's elastic limit, called the yield stress. If an old string has been exposed to stress exceeding the elastic limit of the string, then yes, it may be slightly longer than a new string. But as you have noted, differences in string length can obviously be made up for with the tuning machines on the guitar. Once you tune the guitar to normal pitch, the tension on an old string should be exactly the same as the tension on a new string. The original comment that Silly Moustache quoted stated, "New strings are at the highest tension then lose tension as they age!" This guy SM quoted was not discussing string length, but rather, tension. I am stating that if a string is tuned to pitch, old or new, it must be at the same tension. Therefore, this comment cannot be correct. The author of this comment may be suggesting that the string loses strength as it ages so that the elastic stress limit of the string is lowered. I'm not sure if that is true or not, but it might be, once the string has been exposed to enough events of being stretched beyond its elastic limit. The way I use strings, I can't imagine why they would be stretched beyond their elastic limit. But then it's pretty rare for me to break a string, so I probably don't stretch strings beyond their elastic limits. I hope this makes sense. - Glenn
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#28
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I’m a Physics Major, and *my* head hurts
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#29
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I'm not and my head hurts too. I have an English degree too. Hmmm . . . Wait . . . I did get a degree in Computer Science after I turned 50. But my head still hurts. Don .
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#30
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If a string used in normal guitar function doesn't lose any elasticity, it's a moot point. |