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Old 01-15-2022, 08:37 AM
Twiddle Dee Twiddle Dee is offline
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Default The Stones use a II Chord in a 3 chord progression

The Rolling Stones song 'You Can't Always Get What You Want' has only 3 chords and one them is a II chord. It goes, for example in C, Cmaj-Fmaj-Cmaj-Fmaj-Dmaj-Fmaj-Cmaj ect. Why does the II chord (Dmaj) work so well when it's clearly outside the key? The II chord contains a sharp 4th (F#). The C maj scale with a #4 is the C Lydian mode so the II chord is a 'borrowed' chord from the Lydian mode. I watched a Rick Beato video on modes (highly recommend his videos) and he explained that when the Lydian mode is used it often conveys a sense of hope or purpose which makes total sense in this context. I find this stuff interesting and I'd be interested in your comments.
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Old 01-15-2022, 09:25 AM
AndreF AndreF is offline
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Interesting take.
Going by the recording though, Keith plays it acoustically in open E tuning capoed at the 8th fret (key of C), and the familiar strumming pattern is mostly an exchange between sus. versions the I (E) and IV (A) chords, relative to the capo.
The electric guitar is in standard tuning, and follows with C to F riffing.

That's how I recall learning that song and how it goes.
Not trying to poke holes at all in your analysis. I just would not have described it as you did guitar playing wise. Just trying to better figure out what you mean or the angle you're coming from.
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Old 01-15-2022, 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Twiddle Dee View Post
The Rolling Stones song 'You Can't Always Get What You Want' has only 3 chords and one them is a II chord. It goes, for example in C, Cmaj-Fmaj-Cmaj-Fmaj-Dmaj-Fmaj-Cmaj ect. Why does the II chord (Dmaj) work so well when it's clearly outside the key? The II chord contains a sharp 4th (F#). The C maj scale with a #4 is the C Lydian mode so the II chord is a 'borrowed' chord from the Lydian mode. I watched a Rick Beato video on modes (highly recommend his videos) and he explained that when the Lydian mode is used it often conveys a sense of hope or purpose which makes total sense in this context. I find this stuff interesting and I'd be interested in your comments.
IMO after a brief listen the Dmaj has a F# which fits the melody line (or at least the treble walk down of F# - F - E (chords D to F to C)).
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Old 01-15-2022, 12:59 PM
Brent Hahn Brent Hahn is offline
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Yeah, interesting that in a 3-chord song, a II is one of them. And a V isn't.

I think Beato is often interesting. But sometimes I find his pedagogical analyses annoying, in the sense that the people who write these songs probably don't think that way at all.
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Old 01-15-2022, 01:06 PM
AndreF AndreF is offline
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.....in the sense that the people who write these songs probably don't think that way at all.
And that's probably a good thing, otherwise we never would have heard it.
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Old 01-15-2022, 04:27 PM
FrankHudson FrankHudson is offline
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Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
Yeah, interesting that in a 3-chord song, a II is one of them. And a V isn't.

I think Beato is often interesting. But sometimes I find his pedagogical analyses annoying, in the sense that the people who write these songs probably don't think that way at all.
I know what you're saying -- but isn't it inevitable that Richards did something with his mind that decided to use those chords in that cadence. As a composer I'd call that thinking, a mental process of searching, combining, and choosing, but others may wish to use a narrower definition of thinking I suppose.

I composed stuff by discovery, not even knowing what chords I'm playing, and I've composed stuff by trying to apply a theoretical model. Both can work. If one always composes one way or the other, trying the other approach can break one out of rut I think. If so, someone like Beato can help a "feel" player experience working with different chords and cadences.
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Old 01-16-2022, 06:50 AM
Twiddle Dee Twiddle Dee is offline
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Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
Yeah, interesting that in a 3-chord song, a II is one of them. And a V isn't.

I think Beato is often interesting. But sometimes I find his pedagogical analyses annoying, in the sense that the people who write these songs probably don't think that way at all.
Right, I don't think Keith (I assume Keith wrote it) was thinking in terms of modes when he came up with it. I think he just heard something that works and went with it.
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Old 01-16-2022, 02:45 PM
jseth jseth is offline
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Using a IImaj chord is a very common substitution... I'd hear that as more of a dom7 chord than a major 7 that "wants" to resolve to the V chord, but doesn't "have to". (a V7/V7, in other words.)

When I'm analyzing a song's structure, it helps to realize that many times, tensions are implied, rather than played... just because it's the IV chord, doesn't mean that I'll play a major 7 and a #11, for example. In this case, although I "hear it" as a dom7 chord, it isn't voiced when played the song.

When you dig into music theory/harmony concepts, one of the cool things about dom7 chords is that they can resolve pretty much ANYWHERE and sound good doing it! It's the player's/writer's "intent" that makes them fit or not...

But using a "major" chord as the II is VERY common in traditional blues and country music... no big mystery...
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Old 01-18-2022, 08:44 AM
Twiddle Dee Twiddle Dee is offline
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I agree that a IImaj is a common chord substitution but it generally resolves to the V chord as in the II chord is the V of the V chord but a stand alone II chord in a 3 chord progression is rather unique I'd say.
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Old 01-18-2022, 10:10 AM
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Consider note leading where used and some things become clearer.
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Old 01-18-2022, 10:31 AM
JonPR JonPR is offline
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There's a useful distinction here - well, if you're into theory anyway - between a major II as a "secondary dominant" (leading to V) and a major II which is just a major II.

E.g., the Stones used a major II as "V/V" (dominant of the V) in Honky Tonk Women: an A major chord to "kick the sequence upstairs" to the D chord. That's a common thing in country music (Hank Williams did it often), which is partly why it suits that song so well.

But in this case, where the D goes to F and then back to C, it's not really "V/V" at all. It's just II.

A good comparison is the first song they ever wrote, As Tears Go By. This is G-A-C-D. So again the major II goes to IV, but then it does go on to V, so could be argued to be V/V, just with a delayed resolution.

But in general, Derek is quite right. Like all chord progressions (and I mean ALL) the secret is the voice-leading. Don't look at the root movement, and whether the chord is in key or not. Look at how each chord tone moves to the nearest note in the next chord.

In this case the chromatic walk-down, as he mentioned. G-F#-F-E over the sequence C-D-F-C. Chromatic notes will always lead by half-step (up or down) to a note that is diatonic (in key) and probably in the next chord. (When the A goes to D in Honky Tonk Women, the C# is going up to D. Or down to C on D7.)
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Old 01-18-2022, 07:06 PM
Italuke Italuke is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Twiddle Dee View Post
The Rolling Stones song 'You Can't Always Get What You Want' has only 3 chords and one them is a II chord. It goes, for example in C, Cmaj-Fmaj-Cmaj-Fmaj-Dmaj-Fmaj-Cmaj ect. Why does the II chord (Dmaj) work so well when it's clearly outside the key? The II chord contains a sharp 4th (F#). The C maj scale with a #4 is the C Lydian mode so the II chord is a 'borrowed' chord from the Lydian mode. I watched a Rick Beato video on modes (highly recommend his videos) and he explained that when the Lydian mode is used it often conveys a sense of hope or purpose which makes total sense in this context. I find this stuff interesting and I'd be interested in your comments.
As a guy who studied and taught theory at the university level, you're way overthinking this. And Beato's take is one way to look at it. But not the only way. There's not always a need to put everything in neat little boxes, to label everything, using as many syllables and fancy words as possible. Some things are simple. Some are accidents. Too much internet learning...my opinion only.
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Old 01-18-2022, 08:58 PM
DCCougar DCCougar is offline
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Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
Yeah, interesting that in a 3-chord song, a II is one of them. And a V isn't.
Right. Especially since II leads to V which leads to I. (That is, II is the dominant in the key of V.) But II leading to IV definitely works. That's probably because IV contains the 7th and 9th of the V chord and goes especially well with V in the bass.
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Old 01-18-2022, 09:43 PM
Twiddle Dee Twiddle Dee is offline
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As a guy who studied and taught theory at the university level, you're way overthinking this. And Beato's take is one way to look at it. But not the only way. There's not always a need to put everything in neat little boxes, to label everything, using as many syllables and fancy words as possible. Some things are simple. Some are accidents. Too much internet learning...my opinion only.
Ok, well I had a theory and decided to see if could get some buy in. I'm not trying to put things in boxes or whatever, just trying to interact with some like minded folks and maybe learn something.
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Old 01-19-2022, 03:36 AM
JonPR JonPR is offline
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Originally Posted by Italuke View Post
As a guy who studied and taught theory at the university level, you're way overthinking this. And Beato's take is one way to look at it. But not the only way. There's not always a need to put everything in neat little boxes, to label everything, using as many syllables and fancy words as possible. Some things are simple. Some are accidents. Too much internet learning...my opinion only.
I agree, to a certain extent. It's a human compulsion - not just in music! - to think that naming things is the same as understanding them.

We name things to feel like we're getting a handle on them. We obviously can't talk about things unless we label them. Music is nothing but sound, and all its sounds (as you know! ) have been given labels for this purpose.

The problem is that talking about them rarely (if ever) leads to any understanding of how music works on us. I've been reading music theory (informally) for some 50 years. It's not given me any understanding of "why" music "works", and only a little understanding of "how" it works. The sounds are their own language, resistant to translation. So we end up digging even deeper into the jargon, as if we think the answer must be down there somewhere....

With classical music, pretty much everything has been formally labelled and filed away in a consistent database, but with popular music - especially anythng strongly influenced by blues and folk - there's some fuzziness aroung the edges. There are elements that don't quite fit the database - or they fit but they have to be kind of forced.

It all ends up making very simple sounds (easily understood as sound) seem extremely complicated. (Just try explaining blue notes from the perspective of the fixed tuning of western scales.... It can be done, of course, but is beside the point.)
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