Dave Matthews Live Sound

[woodruff]

Originally Posted by Rick Turner

Must we all aspire to the lowest common denominator of tone here? That tone is the fast food of the guitar world...easy to achieve, fills you up, and does little for your long term health.

Right on Rick. I hate the direction the live band acoustic tone is going, it is rampant. I dont know if it's the sound people, or what, maybe we have given up trying to get an acoustic guitar to sound like an acoustic guitar in a large venue setting, so we are doing what we can techinically. but it will never really meet the mark. again, this guy is not my guitar/songwriting hero, but if ya get a chance to hear his solo/duo stuff, with the martin, if there were a way to bottle that tone and move it to the large DMB venue, he would have it(in my mind and my humble ears). But, dont ya think that if they could they would have already? I mean why have a thin acoustic live sound if you dont have to. Couldnt he play his Martin instead, wouldnt that make a difference? Maybe not.

[Guyute]

By the way, call the AGF people rabid hero worshippers all you want, but I think most of us are pretty objective about this stuff.

I think that the backlash from fans came not because of the description of his tone as "quacky" or horrendous, or whatever. It was a result of the implication that Dave's sound is an insult to his fans and therefore, he must not care about them. That's not an attack on his tone, it's a personal attack on Dave who most of his fans recognize as a guy who truly appreciates his fans. I think a lot of DMB fans on the AGF feel like they have to defend Dave and his musical ability, vocals, songwriting, etc. mainly because there are so many people who profess to hate him. I know that's not what Rick has been saying, but it's easy to perceive it that way when you've got this history of DMB bashing on this forum. You'd almost think Dave still played a Gibson!

Of course, if you really want to see the reaction of rabid fans, go post this thread over on the antsmarching.org or dmbtabs.com forums. Then duck!

[mjz]

I just felt the need to add that I am a fan of DMB. Not rabid or anything, but I "get" him. I enjoy him, I enjoy the band, I enjoy his writing, I enjoy his muscianship. That said -- I agree with Rick. DMB's live tone is pretty average. It doesn't take away from my listening pleasure like Rick's, but I can tell you it would add a bunch if he presented his acoustic stuff with a critical ear toward the quality of his tone.

Also, I wanted to point out that both Rick Turner and Joe Barbieri have posted on the same thread here in the AGF. You won't find anyone more versed in Fishman products than Joe -- Thanks again for the update on my Matrix Joe , or anyone more passionate about amplified sound waves eminating from stringed instruments than Rick Turner. I mean, how cool is that?!! Rick Turner asks Joe Barbieri to get Dave Matthews an Aura! The only thing cooler would be Dave himself chimming in -- unfortunately he's just not one of us geeks.

Rick has a strong opinion. I don't find him condescending in the slightest. I find him passionate and knowledgible. Let's keep differences of opinion in perspective. They're just --- differences of opinion.

max

[joe white]

Originally Posted by mjz

Rick has a strong opinion. I don't find him condescending in the slightest. I find him passionate and knowledgible. Let's keep differences of opinion in perspective. They're just --- differences of opinion. max

YEP! And we can all benefit from a good 'ol objective, rational discussion!

[Flemtone]

Holey Moley! This thread is something else...

I don't believe Joe said anything about Matthews 'not caring' about his tone. I believe he said that he didn't know what was going on in Matthews head regarding tone.

My acoustic trio covers a few DM songs, and those are all I've heard from him, with the exception of attending one free live show (Central Park, NYC). Considering the type of songs he writes and the subject matter involved, isn't it entirely possible that the sound he produces is exactly what he wants for these specific songs? Dark, edgy, angst-riddled lyrics don't really mesh with clean, beautiful tone.

It doesn't matter if you like it or not. If you like it, you like it. If you don't, you don't. It's not like you're being compelled to listen.

In my opinion, stating that a performer's tone indicates his disdain for his audience is silly. He apparently gives his audience exactly what they want, and isn't that what 'being a performer' is all about?

Matthews isn't my cup of tea, but he isn't the Antichrist, either.


...or is he?

[guitaniac]

Originally Posted by Chicago Sandy

Today was my first time running sound for the first day of a three-day mini-festival. Four acoustic solos followed by three loud rock bands. Let me tell you, as a guitarist I had always hated the sound of piezo USTs. Well, after today, I discovered something: as a sound tech I really, really, DETEST them.

This is the first paragraph of the thread where Rick first brought up the Dave Matthews guitar sound. Personally, I can't blame Rick for being a little frustrated with acts who help to perpetuate this view of USTs by being ignorant of, or seemingly indifferent to, the available means of getting pleasing sound from a undersaddle transducer.

USTs won't ever please everyone and the DMB won't ever please everyone. Both of their reputations would have probably benefitted, however, if Dave had been gigging with a Renaissance RS-6 rather than a Gibson "Chet" SST.

Gary

[Antz_Marchin]

^What Guyute said above, if you had a bit of tact in making your points I would have no issue. (Although I still can't understand how you are basing your opinion only on what you've heard on the radio....not live or at very least on CD) It's the fact that you say he insults his fans, doesn't care about them, only their money and the "I'm far superior to everybody" atitude that seems to hover around you. See, so I see it as an attack of his character by what you've said, I'm not defending his tone perse although I have no issues with it (although I may start to if I only listen to it on FM, like you seem to), you can have your "king of the castle" opinion.

[jaeger29]

Originally Posted by woodruff

Couldnt he play his Martin instead, wouldnt that make a difference? Maybe not.

I think not. Only because his live stable (Taylor 914ce, W65, 714ce) is decent, and, quite honestly, all sound about the same. I think it's that consistent "cutting-through" sound that Dave looks for when playing with the full band.

As has been said, no one knows what's in Dave's head as far as tone, but I think he does, at least acknowledge it through his guitar selections. He seems to go with some different guitars (i.e. the Martin) when playing solo acoustic or in an acoustic duo show.

If you dig through some of the muck, there's some great points/thoughts in this thread.

---

In response to Rick below - with whom I agree on much of this thread - (I figured it better to edit then create a new post). I'm not sure if his post is in response to mine, but I wanted to clarify that's not what I'm saying. For the record, I wasn't really commenting on his tone. Live, I've not been listening critically to the guitar tone, specifically. I was just stating above that I didn't think using his Martin would make much difference -- I think it's more about the player than the specific guitar in this case.

I think a decent-sounding guitar sound can be attained, and that it can sound good and cut through even when played with a full band. For what ever reason, Dave is not in pursuit of that tone. He's either happy with the tone he's got, or he's content not to truly evaluate and improve it.

[Rick Turner]

I guess your guitar has to sound terrible to cut through...that's what I'm getting back here...I beg to differ.

[Ants Marching]

I will have to agree with the members who said that this is all a matter of opinion. His signature Martin that he sometimes plays with Tim Reynolds is good for what it is used for, an acoustic performance. Dave used the Gibson Chet so he could " cut through the sound of the band". Maybe he is trying to achieve the same thing with the tone of his 914c.

Being a DMB fan I don't pay attention the DMB bashing, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. The controversy was not over the sound of his tone but the statements made on his relations with the fans and that he does'nt care about his setup. There have been a couple live recordings where I didn't prefer his tone but still thoroughly enjoyed the music. I actually like the "quacky" tone that can be found of The Central Park live album.

I agree with Guyute, if you really want to see something post this on the DMBTABS.COM forum. A "be nice" rule is not even considered.

[jstancil]

[QUOTE=Joyride]Well I'm a soldier of fortune, seeker of peace, international lover & philosopher. I'm a pro at taming tigers, converting virgins, castrating alligators and extinguishing fires. I've also been known to empty bars, quell uprisings & start revolutions. Granted, I am not know as the self proclaimed "Jesus Christ of Sound" But... I did save 15% of my car insurance AND stay in a Holiday Inn Express all in the same day. [QUOTE]

That seriously was the funniest thing I have ever read on this forum! As for the argument, whatever, the guy is famous and loaded and got both by doing what he loves....more power to him. Let whoever wants to complain complain, you all know it doesnt matter to you. But once again, that quote absolutely rocked

[crowdedstr]

Originally Posted by sdelsolray

It's kinda like the pickle slices McDonald's uses. Popular, yes, but certainly not a Claussen.

man, i love pickles, but i don't get any further then unwrapping a mcdonalds sandwich before i'm digging around to get rid of the pickles

please feel free to carry on with the main argument at hand...

[crowdedstr]

Originally Posted by jstancil

That seriously was the funniest thing I have ever read on this forum! As for the argument, whatever, the guy is famous and loaded and got both by doing what he loves....more power to him. Let whoever wants to complain complain, you all know it doesnt matter to you. But once again, that quote absolutely rocked

i love the part about "converting virgins"... absolutely classic

i love dmb. i dont care to get in a heated debate about this, cause personally i couldn't care less, but i'll just say this.

(and this is more for the fans on the list, not the haters, or even the people who are criticizing his sound, cause they probably don't care either...)

but go grab your favorite dmb live album and put on warehouse. listen to the quack in that guitar, especially during the "stop time" intro. if you've been a fan of the band for a long time (like many people including myself have), i can't imagine it any other way. i never want to hear a buttery rich true acoustic tone in that song. it wouldn't work... and it wouldn't work for a number of their other songs (my opinion obviously).

this is the famous dmb sound that was perpetuated in live recordings of them from the very early 90's that travelled the country and eventually made them a popular band far before their first studio release in 1994. it works, and it's very characteristic of the sound that long-time dave matthews band fans are used to.

so sitting here theorizing about what the band is thinking, what gear could be swapped out, etc. cause to most people, it really doesn't matter to most people. i actually like it... the band just might too...

but then again, this is just from a fan's perspective... and i'm a software developer by trade, so i'm not at liberty to speak much to the gear that they use. just dont get me started on that new website they launched a few months back!!!

anyway, carry on...

[bobc]

Rick Turner...

I am sure you have found a tone that you like in your designes and such, but you can't expect everyone to like the same tone you do.

For every hundred people who like DM's tone, i'm sure there are a hudred more that don't. For every hundred people that like the tone from your pickups, i'm sure there are a hundred more that don't.

You can't force your tone taste on everyone... If it ain't Rick Turner's tone... It sucks...

If you did all this famiouse stuff... Why don't you just give Dave M. a call, and tell him to like your tone... Then... Hold a press coference, and tell all his millions of fans that he will be changing his tone to your tone immidiately... And have him make a public oppology for his tone.........

And i am not a real DM fan. I like his music as well as any good music, but i hey... I'm just a hobby'est...

Sorry

[Rick Turner]

Boy, this is a hornet's nest if I ever saw one.

Hey, I don't like DM's quacky guitar tone. I've heard much better from guitarists who actually put a lot of thought into presenting their music through passion, artistry, great songs, and great tone. I ask you, would you buy a guitar that sounded like those recordings for that tone? What if it sounded like that acoustically?

Dave can do whatever he wants to do, and I'm not chasing after him to use my gear. I don't care whether he likes my stuff or not, and frankly, anyone who is after that sound should just go for it and stay miles away from what I do. Some of you guys are getting so personal about this that I wonder for your happiness and sanity. Once again, this thread brought up the quesion of DM's guitar sound. It wasn't the "all cheer the great god Matthews" thread, it was a (PERHAPS) an invitation to discuss the pros and cons of that kind of guitar sound. I hate it, and I'm not afraid to say it. The fans among you are so caught up in DM adulation that you can't handle having anybody criticising your idol. That's not a discussion. You guys drank the CoolAid or something and forgot how to have a discussion.

Here's a question...do you think DM's recorded live direct from pickup sound represents the sound of the guitar well? Do you think that DM would rather that the amplified sound closer resemble the acoustic sound? Do you think he is actively going for that thin and quacky sound because it's his carefully considered artistic choice? Or do you think that he just doesn't know that it could be better because nobody is educating him on that? Is he too isolated from the world of modern amplification to have real choices at hand? (you'd be amazed at how isolated popular artists can get...really quickly) I suspect that DM has no idea of how much different his tone could be...how much closer to the acoustic sound of the guitar it could be. And it's actually possible to tweak amplified guitar tone so it not only fits into a mix perfectly, but also has some body and warmth and sparkle to it. So my theory is that he just doesn't know any better, and with the probable gaggle of syncophants around him who only tell him how great he is, he's not going to ever learn that he's the naked emperor.

Hey, the guy is good, but there are hundreds of really good guitar players out there working with much better tone.

Try listening to Stephen Bruton to hear a tone meister you probably never heard of. Electric and acoustic. Tone for days, great songs, full band settings. Tone is a choice, and I don't like DM's.

Flame on...