Schatten HFN Artist Plus 2 and Shure SM-81 Comparison, 2016 Martin D-18

SpruceTop · #1 04-06-2019, 06:25 PM

Hi Folks,

I just made some quick recordings of my vocal accompaniment guitar part for Neil Young's "Harvest Moon" without the Drop-D Tuning. These two tracks were made simultaneously with one channel recording with the Schatten HFN Artist Plus 2 and the other channel recording the Shure SM-81 that is about 8" inches away from the guitar at the 14th-fret, neck and body interface with the mic capsule pointed between the neck-joint and soundhole. These are direct-to-computer recordings using a PreSonus Studio 192 Interface. The tracks are rendered with FLAT EQ and NO EFFECTS, except Normalization, and picked with a Guitar Moose .80mm Classic Flatpick. Please excuse any slightly mis-fretted notes as I have carpal tunnel in both hands, especially in my fretting hand. Thanks and your comments are Welcome!

DownUpDave · #2 04-06-2019, 07:56 PM

I would be curious to hear what it sounds like through an amp that is miced and recorded

SpruceTop · #3 04-06-2019, 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DownUpDave

I would be curious to hear what it sounds like through an amp that is miced and recorded

It would sound a lot better for sure! Direct recording with flat EQ and no effects are the pits for any system. Thanks for responding, Dave!

DownUpDave · #4 04-06-2019, 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpruceTop

It would sound a lot better for sure! Direct recording with flat EQ and no effects are the pits for any system. Thanks for responding, Dave!

Yea that is what I was getting at, in a diplomatic way.

I have been bitten by the Schatten bug and just ordered two passive HFN pick ups. One of them is the HFN-C for my Cordoba C10 crossover. The other will probably go in my Eastman E100-LTD.

Thanks for sharing and your playing sounded plenty good to me, love that song

martingitdave · #5 04-06-2019, 08:14 PM

Ken,

Nice recordings. Thanks for doing that. I can attest that my latest HFN tape installation sounds pretty much exactly like that through my recording interface. It sounds even nicer through an amp. Very usable sound.

I’m on the fence as to if I will keep using the HFN or simply go back to K&K style pickups. I like what HFN has to offer. But, I’m sorta stuck in my ways.

guitaniac · #6 04-06-2019, 08:27 PM

Direct recordings are certainly the least forgiving way to record a pickup, especially when you're not processing in any way..

My general impression of this comparison is similar to my impression of Aaron's directly recorded pickup/mic comparison. The pickup has a nice high end, but there's more bass and less of that near-the-strings harshness in the mic recording. (I believe that running the signal through a PA system would remove most of what I'll call the "proximity harshness" of a pickup on the bridgeplate.)

You could certainly EQ the HFN signal for a richer directly recorded sound, but I'm wondering how much boosted bass (before feedback issues) I could get away with in a noisy live setting.

I recall a few weeks ago when a member directly recorded a Mag/Pure Mini rig and processed it so well that it was difficult to distinguish it from the mic recording. I'm thinking that the HFN might be an even better SBT choice for that style of dual source rig.

GuitarLuva · #7 04-06-2019, 11:22 PM

Ken,
Nice comparison thanks for sharing. Obviously the sm81 recording was better but the HFN Artist sounded very good as well. Oh and nice choice of music, you can't go wrong with Neil Young.

Peter Z · #8 04-06-2019, 11:28 PM

That os another good sample that shows the greatness of the HFN.

I think it would be more than fair to eq the Schatten since mic placement has a lot influence too - that's also some kind of eq.

That said it would be fair to add a little of a short room reverb too since this is also included in the mic sound.

Even if you just use equipment that we have available at gigs (a mixer or multiFX pedal) the Schatten will be sufficient close to a miced sound.

nikpearson · #9 04-07-2019, 01:52 AM

The Shure SM81 sounds good, the Schatten pickup not so, although I’m sure the pickup sound could be improved by applying judicious EQ.

Despite numerous claims to the contrary, I have yet to hear a pickup that accurately reproduces the sound of an acoustic guitar and I’ve heard most of the models available. The Tonedexter intriques me as it appears to bring the typical pickup sound much, much closer to a well mic’d acoustic.

SpruceTop · #10 04-07-2019, 08:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Z

That os another good sample that shows the greatness of the HFN.

I think it would be more than fair to eq the Schatten since mic placement has a lot influence too - that's also some kind of eq.

That said it would be fair to add a little of a short room reverb too since this is also included in the mic sound.

Even if you just use equipment that we have available at gigs (a mixer or multiFX pedal) the Schatten will be sufficient close to a miced sound.

Thanks, Peter. I chose the 8-inch distance and location of the Shure SM-81 as it likely puts the mic beyond a proximity effect leaving it as having a pretty flat response to the Martin D-18. Shure SM-81 Specification Sheet

Shredmaster007 · #11 04-07-2019, 10:16 AM

The pickup going doesn't sound very good at all, but I guess that is pretty typical. I think a piezo and mag sound better though (direct)...

jonfields45 · #12 04-07-2019, 12:23 PM

I think if you were to take the HFN recording, boost the bass, cut the treble, and play it through a speaker it would sound astoundingly good. It sounds pretty much like my HFN with no EQ when I play it through my QSC CP-8.

Now starting to rant about the passive version:

Think about it, nothing between the saddle and the bridge, no permanent glue, no series of holes drilled next to the bridge saddle, no electronics in your guitar, and with a $25 Behringer graphic EQ700 pedal running off a single 9v battery you're good to go.

Mbroady · #13 04-07-2019, 12:45 PM

Thanks for posting this. The HFN sounds surprisingly acceptable.

I would love to hear the pick up vesrion after some EQ and a plug in or 2
There is no comparison between the mic and the pick up but a lot can be done after the fact.

Compared to a UST the HFN/SBT sounds way better, but nothing beats a mic.

guitaniac · #14 04-08-2019, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mbroady

Thanks for posting this. The HFN sounds surprisingly acceptable.

I would love to hear the pick up vesrion after some EQ and a plug in or 2
There is no comparison between the mic and the pick up but a lot can be done after the fact.

Compared to a UST the HFN/SBT sounds way better, but nothing beats a mic.

Nothing beats a mic for recording in a quiet setting, but I suspect that Ken purchased the Artist/HFN system with a different application in mind.

Its interesting to me that Ken's HFN recording reminds me of my Baggs Lyric test recordings. Both the HFN and the Baggs TruMic share the disadvantage (for recording purposes) of being mounted on the bridgeplate with a listening perspective that is overly close to some harsh pick-on-strings percussiveness. However, that disadvantage becomes an advantage in a live sound situation where you need more feedback-free gain than a studio distance mic placement can provide.

Mbroady · #15 04-08-2019, 03:53 PM

The limited amount of HFN sound samples I have heard seem to indicate that it does sound really good for a live setting. In some samples it seems to surpasses the K&K in regards having a mic like sound.

Ken’s direct recording of the HFN pick up does show its direct single limitations, but still, it can be workable for that application, depending on the type of music. However, we are both on the same page in regards to a good sounding room and some decent mics/pre

I have gotten some good recordings (will post once I mix) with a K&K through a tone dexter for a singer songwriter application. Nice to have a guitar track with no vocal bleed. Mixed in with a mic it sounds better.