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  #196  
Old 02-27-2012, 03:24 PM
Chas Freeborn Chas Freeborn is offline
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Originally Posted by cpabolting View Post
It isn't what is in the agreement that matters.... if there is no money it won't matter. There were lots of people that got the "sorry, all I can give you is the pieces that I have and can identify as going to your guitar. It will cost $xx to ship them to you, please send me the money to ship your parts." Nobody is going to lawyer up over something that likely would have to be litigated in that state and if there is no money, then it would be pointless no matter.
Like I said, make whatever arrangement you need to make everyone happy, but don't force us all into your state of paranoia. I have relationships with customers that go back over 20 years. Do I really need to explain why I have those relationships?
-C
  #197  
Old 02-27-2012, 03:31 PM
cpabolting cpabolting is offline
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Like I said, make whatever arrangement you need to make everyone happy, but don't force us all into your state of paranoia. I have relationships with customers that go back over 20 years. Do I really need to explain why I have those relationships?
-C
Paranoia? Nope. I just sent a check to Harvey a few days ago and thought nothing of it. You can have all the relationships you want with long time customers, but unless you have something financially and legally in place, there are no guarantees on the security of a customers deposit. Things happen when people become sick, or worse yet pass away. And the last thing on anyone's mind, is cutting checks to customers. Estates don't start writing checks the minute the body is cold. Just the way it works.
  #198  
Old 02-27-2012, 03:46 PM
Howard Klepper Howard Klepper is offline
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Originally Posted by cpabolting View Post
Howard... you know as well as I do that adding any layer of administrative bureaucracy would not be anything I am in favor of... what I am in favor of, and would gladly do, is pay the deposit via credit card which gives me a third party to intercede on my behalf (including the 3% fees) and then it is no worries.
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Originally Posted by riorider View Post
And I would think if you treated any query about a return policy as callously and insultingly as some of the reactions have been to a deposit policy, you would not even get to the discussion about a return policy.

I do think it unworthy of you to belittle or disrespect our points of view, and our experiences.
Just how over the top does a fella have to be here not to be taken seriously?

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Originally Posted by cpabolting View Post
Here it is....

Make the deposit $500 when ordered...make an additional $1000 deposit at start of the build (or less so that the lesser of $1,500 or 25% of the total cost of the build is paid in).... accept payment via credit cards with buyer responsible for the 3% or so credit card fees. Any customization on inlays or other configurations that may make the instrument more difficult to sell if the buyer should fail to complete the transaction, should result in an additional fee.

Buyer caps exposure at $1,500 and has some recourse with credit card company.

Luthier has $1,500 of buyers money, and additional amount of money to help make it up to luthier should buyer fail to complete the transaction.

Is there some problem with that?
I saw this the first few times you posted it. I do appreciate you avoiding the insurance/security bond/trade association/escow service stuff.

So, as they say in New Jersey, "You gotta problem wid dat?"

Yes, I do. The first is it's not enough money. $500 is nonrefundable because of what it costs me to spend hours talking on the phone with you, exchanging emails, buying and sequestering materials, having you take up a space on my build calendar that makes everyone after you have to accept a later date, etc. This actually is worth more than $500, which is what it was several years ago. This thread has shown me I should raise it.

So the first $500 (soon to go up) is to pay me for time and opportunity costs, and possibly cash outlays. Next, let's take a simple example: you order a $10,000 guitar, and abruptly cancel when it is well underway. I need to go ahead and complete a guitar knowing I don't get paid when it's done. Then I have to market your guitar. I need photos. I need to put it up on my website with an explanation that doesn't scare people away because they are worried about why you canceled. Maybe I take it to shows, where it takes up space that one of my own spec builds could have taken. In the end, how much do I need to discount to move it? Keith, how much would you pay for someone else's custom order that got canceled? 30% off? 40% off? I lose a few thousand dollars after spending many unpleasant uncompensated hours dealing with it.

The second is I have to have a merchant services account that on top of the 3% charge per transaction has a monthly charge of about $30, and requires me to buy a card machine for about $500.

The third is that I end up trusting a relative stranger across the country not to find a month later that his new guitar hasn't made his life wonderful, gotten him dates with hot women, a gig with a new band, etc., who then decides to put a dispute on the charge if I say it's too late to return it. I'm the one with an ongoing business. People come to me to buy something and trust me with their money because of that. It's like when you buy a new refrigerator, pay the store, and wait for them to deliver it. You trust them with the money. If you want to pay when the refrigerator is delivered and you have used it for a few days, good luck finding a store that does that (except I do give a few days return privilege, unlike the appliance store). Most customers begin as total unknowns, and many more or less stay that way. It's up to them how much they want to become my friend. Some I think I know at the end, others not. I'm not giving them the guitar and the power to take back all but $1500 of the money and disappear leaving it to me to find them and sue them and then collect on a judgment.

If you have a problem with that, you won't be my customer. Simple.

Oh, how do I protect your deposit? I always have enough money or liquid securities to repay everything, and my wife knows how to find my records and has access to my accounts.

You gotta problem wid dat?
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Last edited by Howard Klepper; 02-27-2012 at 03:53 PM.
  #199  
Old 02-27-2012, 03:49 PM
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Larry Pattis Larry Pattis is offline
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  #200  
Old 02-27-2012, 03:55 PM
Chas Freeborn Chas Freeborn is offline
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Originally Posted by cpabolting View Post
Paranoia? Nope. I just sent a check to Harvey a few days ago and thought nothing of it. You can have all the relationships you want with long time customers, but unless you have something financially and legally in place, there are no guarantees on the security of a customers deposit. Things happen when people become sick, or worse yet pass away. And the last thing on anyone's mind, is cutting checks to customers. Estates don't start writing checks the minute the body is cold. Just the way it works.
You are welcome to level any criticism of me you choose. You may also choose to do business with me or not to, that is your prerogative. But now you are accusing my wife and my family of being potentially dis-honest.
Oh, and by the way I have settled estates before. That is not "just the way it works".
  #201  
Old 02-27-2012, 04:00 PM
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cotten cotten is offline
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Pausing this thread for a few hours to allow for some cooling off. Let's keep to the issue, shall we, and not get into talking about each other.

EDIT: On further review, I can't see anything good coming from reopening this thread. We've begun talking in circles, re-posting the same things that were said a hundred or more posts ago, only now we're adding more and more heat while shedding less and less light. With all due respect to each of my friends who have posted in this thread, I'm putting this one to bed.

cotten

Last edited by cotten; 02-27-2012 at 08:49 PM.
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