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Old 06-25-2018, 10:10 AM
Vindellama Vindellama is offline
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Default Mic pair for zoom h5 - akg c 451 b + another?

So...
I want to upgrade my recording chain and start to record more "seriously".
After hearing TBman's comparison...
I guess even cheap external mics can make a huge difference.

The focus right now is going to be solo instrumentals recorded in open environments.
So... "Close micing" could be needed.

These are the "pairs" easily available in my area and in my price range (in my country currency):
updated

Update*
I just got a great deal on a akg c 451 b. But it's a single mic.
Which mic could make a good pairing with it in spaced pairs?
I'm thinking maybe another akg like the 214?
Or something else up to 400usd new.
To fit my budget I'm looking in the used market, so it need to be a popular mic that is easy to find.

Last edited by Vindellama; 08-25-2018 at 07:40 AM.
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Old 06-25-2018, 10:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vindellama View Post
So...
I want to upgrade my recording chain and start to record more "seriously".
Hi V

If you are seriously considering upgrading your recording chain to high end microphones, ditch the Zoom H5 and buy a decent field recorder…The $800 (USD) Zoom F8 field recorder would be great as your interface, and recorder.

Otherwise I'd suggest sticking with the H5, and get a reasonably priced pair of medium diaphragm mics (like the Rode NT-3) or one small and one large diaphragm of MXL or Behringer sub $200 condenser mics.



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Old 06-25-2018, 11:44 AM
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I haven't seen the R8, but is it really an upgrade sonically? I'd expect for the price that it's the same electronics as the H5, they're just focusing on a different form factor and supporting lots of channels. For guitar, 2 channels is normally enough, so the H5 would be fine, I'd think, unless you need lots of tracks recorded at once. A friend just recorded a CD with his H6, with KM184s as external mics, and it sound superb, I don't hear any reason he would need more from the electronics side for what he's doing. But curious about the R8.

As far as mics, any of those you mentioned will do the trick. For the most part sonic differences between mics are somewhat subtle, tho mics are a lot like guitars - everyone has a favorite, and what some people hear as little or no difference, others will hear as a huge change. One thing that isn't subject to personal taste is self-noise, and the lower-priced mics often have more noise. The AT2020's are amazing mics for the price, and are an upgrade over the Zoom mics. You can make good recordings with them, but they do have some self-noise. That improves as you move up the AT line. For example, the AT4033's have been used on lots of commercial CDs and are quieter than the 2020s. I've not tried the 4041s, but I'd suspect they are an improvement over the 2020s as far as noise.
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Old 06-25-2018, 12:40 PM
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I haven't seen the R8, but is it really an upgrade sonically?
Hi Doug

F8n (not R8) and the second version (2018 release not 2015) I thought is better than the Zoom H series recorders. I could be wrong…but it's a pretty serious upgrade to the previous version.

As one who is getting more into video, this one has caught my eye as a potential on-the-fly rig.

B&H review on YouTube…





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Last edited by ljguitar; 06-25-2018 at 12:49 PM.
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Old 06-25-2018, 12:44 PM
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I haven't used any of these, but the 4041 has been highly regarded for years. I have often thought of purchasing a pair.

All of the mics mention are well known, but I will throw out some other highly regarded inexpensive mics (see Gearslutz threads, including dedicated threads, detailed discussions, pictures of in innards, build quality and parts used. These are all inexpensive but not cheap):


ISK Little Gem (comes with three caps) $49 U.S.
ISK Pearl (medium cap) $29 U.S.

Line Audio CM3 (cardioid) or OM1 (omni) $124 U.S.

3U Audio CM100 (can be purchased with three caps) $130 U.S.

3U Audio Warbler 127 (transformer coupled+ can be purchased with three caps) $280 U.S.

I have two 3U Audio mics, a CM1 Teal and Warbler MKII. Both are outstanding.
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Old 06-25-2018, 01:18 PM
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Given you already have your Zoom H5 I would say you could get a marked improvement by using an external pair of mics as you suggest, without laying out too much money (at least to start with!).

Apart from the performance of the mics there is also the flexibility to position them to optimise the sound you want - I usually stick with a spaced pair.

What mics give you the best sound can be a matter of choice - just like which guitar, etc. If it depends on what is available locally and you have no reason to choose otherwise and pay more the AT2020's are worth considering.

FWIW I use a Zoom H5 with SE2200a mics (bought used some years ago), and have often recorded with external and internal mics simultaneously and have invariably preferred the tracks with the external mics.
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Old 06-25-2018, 01:55 PM
Vindellama Vindellama is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Young View Post
For example, the AT4033's have been used on lots of commercial CDs and are quieter than the 2020s. I've not tried the 4041s, but I'd suspect they are an improvement over the 2020s as far as noise.
I'll consider the higher priced ones then (for the lower noise). Don't want to upgrade again anytime soon.
The AT4043 are a bit above my budget, but there are some used ones available that could be bought without going way over.
The problem is...
Is it hard to match used mics?
Like it would be the case with the AT4043's and sm81's.

The at4041's and the nt5's are available as matched pairs.

Subjectively speaking.
Are any of these noticeably "fuller/warmer" sounding?
Or is it just a matter of right positioning and eq'ing + reverb?
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Old 06-25-2018, 01:59 PM
Vindellama Vindellama is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DukeX View Post
I haven't used any of these, but the 4041 has been highly regarded for years. I have often thought of purchasing a pair.

All of the mics mention are well known, but I will throw out some other highly regarded inexpensive mics (see Gearslutz threads, including dedicated threads, detailed discussions, pictures of in innards, build quality and parts used. These are all inexpensive but not cheap):


ISK Little Gem (comes with three caps) $49 U.S.
ISK Pearl (medium cap) $29 U.S.

Line Audio CM3 (cardioid) or OM1 (omni) $124 U.S.

3U Audio CM100 (can be purchased with three caps) $130 U.S.

3U Audio Warbler 127 (transformer coupled+ can be purchased with three caps) $280 U.S.

I have two 3U Audio mics, a CM1 Teal and Warbler MKII. Both are outstanding.
Unfortunately none of these are available in my country.
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Old 06-25-2018, 02:24 PM
DukeX DukeX is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vindellama View Post
Unfortunately none of these are available in my country.
These manufactures do not sell in retail stores. They are direct order and ship worldwide AFAIK. It is worth looking into IMO. If this method is not for you, you have a lot of other good choices, as already mentioned. Good luck!

ISKproaudio.com

lineaudio.se/

You can order the 3U mics directly from the owner/designer:
Guosheng Zhuang
Director
3U Audio Pty Ltd
ABN 82 158 441 804
18/30 Ramsay Road
Five Dock NSW 2046
Australia
[email protected]
www.3uaudio.com
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Old 06-25-2018, 02:31 PM
Vindellama Vindellama is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DukeX View Post
These manufactures do not sell in retail stores. They are direct order and ship worldwide AFAIK. It is worth looking into IMO. If this method is not for you, you have a lot of other good choices, as already mentioned. Good luck!

ISKproaudio.com

lineaudio.se/

You can order the 3U mics directly from the owner/designer:
Guosheng Zhuang
Director
3U Audio Pty Ltd
ABN 82 158 441 804
18/30 Ramsay Road
Five Dock NSW 2046
Australia
[email protected]
www.3uaudio.com
I'll take a look
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  #11  
Old 06-25-2018, 02:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vindellama View Post
Is it hard to match used mics?
Like it would be the case with the AT4043's and sm81's.

The at4041's and the nt5's are available as matched pairs.

Subjectively speaking.
Are any of these noticeably "fuller/warmer" sounding?
Or is it just a matter of right positioning and eq'ing + reverb?
Exact matching is probably less important than many people think. At this price point, I doubt that any manufacturer is hand matching mics. Manufacturering is good enough these days that mics of the same brand and model are matched more than well enough for recording guitar. Having the same model is important (relatively) if you want to use xy or ortf mic techniques. If you want to use spaced pairs, people even deliberately mismatch mics, to get the best sound in each location.


As far as fuller/warmer, i think you’ll find the differences between mics in the price range and class your looking at are virtually undetectable (but as i said, some will hear it differently). There are mics that are noticeably “warmer”, like ribbon mics, but thats a whole diiferent discussion.

There are mic shootouts online that can give you an idea of the differences. Fran guidry has done some on his homebrew music site. But just search for acoustic guitar mic shootout, to find many to choose from. Here's one that includes a few of the mics that tend to get mentioned here, including demoing the changes as you move up the audio technica line:


Last edited by Doug Young; 06-25-2018 at 05:35 PM.
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Old 06-25-2018, 07:11 PM
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I recently bought a pair of AKG C214's that I just love. They have a really strong output and are very quiet with regards to noise. You can find them like new used fairly easily. I also bought a Focusrite ISA pre-amp which has a meter on it so you can see the output of each mic. I did a test with AKG C214 vrs the AT 2020, and the difference was night and day. The AKG mic was much more powerful and sounded much better over all. The AKG's are my goto mics now.....
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Old 06-26-2018, 09:30 PM
DupleMeter DupleMeter is offline
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Of the mics you mentioned, I own a pair of the AT4041s and Shure SM81s. I have a friend who has the NT5s at his studio. I don't have any experience with the AT2020/2021. Here are my thoughts:

NT5 - hate them. Sorry...some people like them, I find them strident & 2-dimensional. They go beyond "bright", right to "ice pick to the ears" IMHO.

AT4041 - I like them. They are not "neutral" sounding. They are big & bright. Not in a bad way. Very 3-dimensional with a big low-end and a noticeable presence peak that adds a useful articulation. Did I mention, they have a huge low-end? Yep..they make things sound huge. These are also relatively high output.

SM81 - neutral sounding. If you were to go to the SM81 after the AT4041 you'd feel a little let down. But, these are very honest mics. No hype. If you're looking for less "editorializing", these are the mics. They are lower output than the ATs...so you'll be pushing the preamos more (and that might mean more noise).

I might suggest seeing if you can find a pair of the AKG C451Bs. They fall somewhere between the AT4041 & SM81. Less hyped than the ATs, but give you a little more character than the Shure. I actually like the C451s a lot for acoustic instruments. I use these way more than my SM81s.

HTH
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Old 06-27-2018, 09:15 PM
Vindellama Vindellama is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DupleMeter View Post
Of the mics you mentioned, I own a pair of the AT4041s and Shure SM81s. I have a friend who has the NT5s at his studio. I don't have any experience with the AT2020/2021. Here are my thoughts:

NT5 - hate them. Sorry...some people like them, I find them strident & 2-dimensional. They go beyond "bright", right to "ice pick to the ears" IMHO.

AT4041 - I like them. They are not "neutral" sounding. They are big & bright. Not in a bad way. Very 3-dimensional with a big low-end and a noticeable presence peak that adds a useful articulation. Did I mention, they have a huge low-end? Yep..they make things sound huge. These are also relatively high output.

SM81 - neutral sounding. If you were to go to the SM81 after the AT4041 you'd feel a little let down. But, these are very honest mics. No hype. If you're looking for less "editorializing", these are the mics. They are lower output than the ATs...so you'll be pushing the preamos more (and that might mean more noise).

I might suggest seeing if you can find a pair of the AKG C451Bs. They fall somewhere between the AT4041 & SM81. Less hyped than the ATs, but give you a little more character than the Shure. I actually like the C451s a lot for acoustic instruments. I use these way more than my SM81s.

HTH
Thx for the comparison.

Does the 'huge low end' on the AT4041 translates into more noticeable proximity effect?

The guitars are a L-00 adi/hog and a 00 12 fret adi/brw. Maybe one of the two is a better match considering the guitar models?

I've seen these c451b's. Was interested, but... Same problem with the limited availability on used ones.
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Old 06-27-2018, 09:37 PM
DupleMeter DupleMeter is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vindellama View Post
Thx for the comparison.

Does the 'huge low end' on the AT4041 translates into more noticeable proximity effect?

The guitars are a L-00 adi/hog and a 00 12 fret adi/brw. Maybe one of the two is a better match considering the guitar models?

I've seen these c451b's. Was interested, but... Same problem with the limited availability on used ones.
It's not just proximity effect...the 4041s just have a very full low end. They do have a roll-off switch...which can tame that...but I find that makes the mics a little too bright sometimes, so I leave it set flat & roll-off in my DAW.
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