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  #16  
Old 12-06-2019, 03:09 PM
charles Tauber charles Tauber is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tomiv9 View Post
I think Charles above mispoke with is 0.005" recommendation, unless he is talking about the gap when you fret at the 2nd fret, which is also a way to gauge if nut slots are too high.
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Originally Posted by Jimi2 View Post
But looks like action at the first fret is ~.75 mm for the high e.

My mistake.

Stewmac's values are stated as "action at the first fret", which is what the OP stated his measurement was. That is the distance from the top of the first fret to the bottom of the string. That is one common method of measuring.

The values I gave are string height at the nut relative to the plane of the frets. In theory, the string height at the nut should be the same as the plane of the frets (i.e. zero). In practice, a few thousands above that prevents buzzing for those who tune down or have a very heavy attack. I usually increase the string height on the bass strings by a few thousandths for that reason.
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  #17  
Old 12-06-2019, 04:07 PM
Jimi2 Jimi2 is offline
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Thanks everyone! Looks like a setup is in my future. This is a really great guitar, so if I can get playing just a little better i will be totally in love.
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  #18  
Old 12-06-2019, 06:12 PM
John Arnold John Arnold is offline
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Quote:
checking nut height is a bit tricky.
It is not necessary to measure the string height at the first fret. All you need to do is press down the string between the second and third frets, and look for minimal clearance over the first fret. If it is more than the slightest amount, the nut is too far above the fret plane, which makes the guitar unnecessarily hard to play.
The reason I never measure first fret action is simple. With the nut height set at the fret plane (verified by the outlined test), the first fret action will always be about 11% of the action at the 12th. This is geometry. The first fret is 5.6% of the total string length, and the 12th is 50% (ignoring compensation, which is insignificant in this realm).
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I usually increase the string height on the bass strings by a few thousandths for that reason.
I do it on the 6th string, but for a different reason. When fretted or capoed on upper frets, the 6th string can sympathetically vibrate against the frets. This is known as a back buzz, and it generally only occurs on that string. While increasing relief can also eliminate back buzz, that raises action on all the strings.

Last edited by John Arnold; 12-06-2019 at 06:19 PM.
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  #19  
Old 12-06-2019, 09:17 PM
darylcrisp darylcrisp is offline
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Jim

John A and Charles T have given you excellent advice. A quick test to check the strings at the first fret is take a small piece of normal paper, which is about .004" thick. fret between the 2nd and 3rd fret and stick the paper under the strings at the first fret-a good first fret action will have you feeling drag on that paper-if you don't feel any or just a little, the nut slots are too high. I keep the low E string a little higher where it barely drags in feel, as it frets easy and you don't want what John mentioned.

There's more to set up, and that would be checking fret heights over the fretboard, to insure no area is ever so slightly high, and once leveled, it will allow you to set action and relief(bow) in the neck as low as your playing style allows. A martin with a correct set neck(and that needs to be checked also during all this) can have a low easy playing action.

good luck, find someone really good in reputation for setups in your area
d
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  #20  
Old 12-06-2019, 10:19 PM
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TBman TBman is offline
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Originally Posted by Jimi2 View Post
So I got an absolutely ridiculous deal on a Martin omc-28e on Black Friday. Went to the store for a beater and found a beauty with a baggs anthem. Only thing is, There’s a little more string tension than I would ideally like, at least in standard tuning. In drop tunings, which I use frequently, it’s much better of course. The action is already really low, so lowering further is not really an option. So my question is whether there is anything a tech can do with setup to give me a little bit more comfort. The neck is pretty straight- would introducing a little relief ease up on things a bit by pulling less on the strings, or would it not matter?
My fingerstyle teacher even told me that the 12s on it feel
Like 13s, so it’s not all in my head.
Its the wrong guitar for you. Maybe try a set of round cores first, but maybe you're trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. It's just not the one.
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  #21  
Old 12-07-2019, 02:55 AM
nikpearson nikpearson is offline
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Default Apparent tension...

In my experience the apparent string tension is not just down to scale length, action, relief and string type/gauge.

How easily the top moves and the bridge rotates makes a very significant difference to the overall feel of the instrument. This in turn relates to how lightly built the guitar is. For example I have an all mahogany Bourgeois with a 25” scale length that feels ‘stiffer’ than a Taylor GA with identical strings and a longer scale length. The setup on both is near identical.

The easiest playing guitar I have in terms of apparent string tension is a 00 12-fret built last year. Scale length here is 632mm. I built this instrument very lightly and this translates into making 12s feel like 11s.

One word of warning, I also find that very lightly built instruments with what feel like low string tension also have specific limitations in terms of sound. There’s often a correlation between light build, extra (excessive) bass, and what I think of as thin sounding trebles. Where I study guitar-making, the tendency is to build extremely light instruments and most tend to exhibit what I think of as a college sound: surprising bass extension for the body size, coupled with overly bright and thin trebles.

I’ve come to the conclusion that focusing on the sound you want, achieving a good setup, and then adapting to the apparent string tension that this produces is the way forward for me.
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  #22  
Old 12-07-2019, 01:51 PM
51 Relic 51 Relic is offline
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I would try a set of Martin Flexible Core 12-54 I found them to be more hand friendly for fingerstyle
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  #23  
Old 12-07-2019, 07:26 PM
Jimi2 Jimi2 is offline
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gonna try a set of elixir custom lights for sure, but are there any coated string alternative that would have less tension than my elixir 12s? I really like the tone of those on the Martin - a little less bright than on my Taylor, which is maybe a touch too bright. And the longevity is outstanding. But I’m willing to experiment.
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  #24  
Old 12-07-2019, 07:32 PM
Jimi2 Jimi2 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TBman View Post
Its the wrong guitar for you. Maybe try a set of round cores first, but maybe you're trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. It's just not the one.
Well, I’m definitely keeping it. It’s way more guitar than I could normally afford - got like two grand off, the tone is sweet, and the bags anthem is amazing. Worst case scenario is I’ll use it for drop tunings and keep my Taylor for standard stuff.
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  #25  
Old 12-07-2019, 08:50 PM
Deliberate1 Deliberate1 is offline
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Originally Posted by charles Tauber View Post
Here are two very simply "qualitative" tests for the string height at the nut. Play a barre at, say, the 7th fret and at the first fret. The effort required to do so at the first fret should be no more than at the 7th fret. If it is, the strings are too high at the nut.
Apologies for poaching this thread, but I was going to post a similar question to address a similar issue. I have a new to me Bourgeois Slope D. I put on a set of Pearse 80/20 (12-53) which I use on my Larrivee 000-40. Both guitars are long scale 12 fret. And both have a relatively low setup, at least that is what I believe. Each reads about 2mm at the 12th fret. But the Bourgeois requires considerably more effort to flatten the strings in the first few frets. I find that it take great pressure in my index finger to flatten the D string when playing an open A. It is rather fatiguing after a short time. And, using the test suggested above, it takes dramatically more pressure to barre an F chord than it does a B chord on the 7th fret. Before mucking about with the setup up, I have a set of light Martin Monels and DR Sunbeams Roundcore PB (both 11's). But if that does not do it, a set-up may be in order.
So my question is why two guitars with the same strings and neck length and similar fret tolerance would be so different in the way they play with respect to string tension. And if the action is as low as it can go, what adjustments can be made, recognizing that lowering the action does not, if I get this right, affect the tension of the string. I have researched this and have read abut others who have had similar issues with their Bourgeois guitars.
Many thanks, chums.
David
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  #26  
Old 12-07-2019, 09:46 PM
charles Tauber charles Tauber is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deliberate1 View Post
... it takes dramatically more pressure to barre an F chord than it does a B chord on the 7th fret.
The strings are too high at the nut.

Quote:
I have a set of light Martin Monels and DR Sunbeams Roundcore PB (both 11's). But if that does not do it, a set-up may be in order.
The strings will be higher than necessary at the nut regardless of what brand or gauge of strings you put on it. A setup is required for optimal playability.


Quote:
So my question is why two guitars with the same strings and neck length and similar fret tolerance would be so different in the way they play with respect to string tension. And if the action is as low as it can go, what adjustments can be made, recognizing that lowering the action does not, if I get this right, affect the tension of the string.
There are a number of things that go into the "feel" of how a guitar plays including: string height at nut and saddle; amount of neck relief; fret hight, width and profile; neck shape; string spacing at nut and bridge; scale length and others. Those that are typically adjusted are the string height at nut and saddle and neck relief.

An action that is as low as it can go will just begin to buzz equally at every fret and open string when you pluck it just harder than the maximum you do when playing normally. That varies with the player. It also varies with the quality of the fret work: level frets allow strings to be lower than un-level frets.

The starting point is to determine if your guitar(s) are as low as they will go for your playing. In theory, with proper setup, fretwork, etc., two similar guitars can be setup to play similarly. Differences in stiffness of necks and tops can influence the "feel" of the instrument.

The Mersenne equation relates vibrating frequency ("pitch"), f, to vibrating string length, L, string tension, T, and bulk modulus (mass per unit length):



As can be seen from the equation, if you hold the pitch, vibrating string length and mass of the string constant the string tension is a constant. Practically, you can change the tension by altering the pitch of the string, its vibrating length or its mass. Lower pitch decreases string tension, as does a shorter scale length and thinner less heavy strings.

Last edited by charles Tauber; 12-07-2019 at 09:54 PM.
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  #27  
Old 12-07-2019, 10:13 PM
Deliberate1 Deliberate1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charles Tauber View Post


The Mersenne equation relates vibrating frequency ("pitch"), f, to vibrating string length, L, string tension, T, and bulk modulus (mass per unit length):



As can be seen from the equation, if you hold the pitch, vibrating string length and mass of the string constant the string tension is a constant. Practically, you can change the tension by altering the pitch of the string, its vibrating length or its mass. Lower pitch decreases string tension, as does a shorter scale length and thinner less heavy strings.
Charles, thanks, but you made my brain hurt.
David
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