#16
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My mistake. Stewmac's values are stated as "action at the first fret", which is what the OP stated his measurement was. That is the distance from the top of the first fret to the bottom of the string. That is one common method of measuring. The values I gave are string height at the nut relative to the plane of the frets. In theory, the string height at the nut should be the same as the plane of the frets (i.e. zero). In practice, a few thousands above that prevents buzzing for those who tune down or have a very heavy attack. I usually increase the string height on the bass strings by a few thousandths for that reason. |
#17
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Thanks everyone! Looks like a setup is in my future. This is a really great guitar, so if I can get playing just a little better i will be totally in love.
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#18
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The reason I never measure first fret action is simple. With the nut height set at the fret plane (verified by the outlined test), the first fret action will always be about 11% of the action at the 12th. This is geometry. The first fret is 5.6% of the total string length, and the 12th is 50% (ignoring compensation, which is insignificant in this realm). Quote:
Last edited by John Arnold; 12-06-2019 at 06:19 PM. |
#19
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Jim
John A and Charles T have given you excellent advice. A quick test to check the strings at the first fret is take a small piece of normal paper, which is about .004" thick. fret between the 2nd and 3rd fret and stick the paper under the strings at the first fret-a good first fret action will have you feeling drag on that paper-if you don't feel any or just a little, the nut slots are too high. I keep the low E string a little higher where it barely drags in feel, as it frets easy and you don't want what John mentioned. There's more to set up, and that would be checking fret heights over the fretboard, to insure no area is ever so slightly high, and once leveled, it will allow you to set action and relief(bow) in the neck as low as your playing style allows. A martin with a correct set neck(and that needs to be checked also during all this) can have a low easy playing action. good luck, find someone really good in reputation for setups in your area d |
#20
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Barry Sad Moments {Marianne Vedral cover}: My SoundCloud page Some steel strings, some nylon. |
#21
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Apparent tension...
In my experience the apparent string tension is not just down to scale length, action, relief and string type/gauge.
How easily the top moves and the bridge rotates makes a very significant difference to the overall feel of the instrument. This in turn relates to how lightly built the guitar is. For example I have an all mahogany Bourgeois with a 25” scale length that feels ‘stiffer’ than a Taylor GA with identical strings and a longer scale length. The setup on both is near identical. The easiest playing guitar I have in terms of apparent string tension is a 00 12-fret built last year. Scale length here is 632mm. I built this instrument very lightly and this translates into making 12s feel like 11s. One word of warning, I also find that very lightly built instruments with what feel like low string tension also have specific limitations in terms of sound. There’s often a correlation between light build, extra (excessive) bass, and what I think of as thin sounding trebles. Where I study guitar-making, the tendency is to build extremely light instruments and most tend to exhibit what I think of as a college sound: surprising bass extension for the body size, coupled with overly bright and thin trebles. I’ve come to the conclusion that focusing on the sound you want, achieving a good setup, and then adapting to the apparent string tension that this produces is the way forward for me. |
#22
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I would try a set of Martin Flexible Core 12-54 I found them to be more hand friendly for fingerstyle
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Martin OODB JT Gibson J45 Yamaha LLTA Yamaha SLG200S Yamaha NTX1200R Taylor GSMiniE Rosewood Joe Brown Uke AER Compact 60 Marshall AS50D Now 100% Acoustic and loving it ! No more GAS |
#23
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gonna try a set of elixir custom lights for sure, but are there any coated string alternative that would have less tension than my elixir 12s? I really like the tone of those on the Martin - a little less bright than on my Taylor, which is maybe a touch too bright. And the longevity is outstanding. But I’m willing to experiment.
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#24
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Well, I’m definitely keeping it. It’s way more guitar than I could normally afford - got like two grand off, the tone is sweet, and the bags anthem is amazing. Worst case scenario is I’ll use it for drop tunings and keep my Taylor for standard stuff.
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#25
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So my question is why two guitars with the same strings and neck length and similar fret tolerance would be so different in the way they play with respect to string tension. And if the action is as low as it can go, what adjustments can be made, recognizing that lowering the action does not, if I get this right, affect the tension of the string. I have researched this and have read abut others who have had similar issues with their Bourgeois guitars. Many thanks, chums. David |
#26
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An action that is as low as it can go will just begin to buzz equally at every fret and open string when you pluck it just harder than the maximum you do when playing normally. That varies with the player. It also varies with the quality of the fret work: level frets allow strings to be lower than un-level frets. The starting point is to determine if your guitar(s) are as low as they will go for your playing. In theory, with proper setup, fretwork, etc., two similar guitars can be setup to play similarly. Differences in stiffness of necks and tops can influence the "feel" of the instrument. The Mersenne equation relates vibrating frequency ("pitch"), f, to vibrating string length, L, string tension, T, and bulk modulus (mass per unit length): As can be seen from the equation, if you hold the pitch, vibrating string length and mass of the string constant the string tension is a constant. Practically, you can change the tension by altering the pitch of the string, its vibrating length or its mass. Lower pitch decreases string tension, as does a shorter scale length and thinner less heavy strings. Last edited by charles Tauber; 12-07-2019 at 09:54 PM. |
#27
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David |