"Thick" spruce top?

[personatech]

I'm seriously considering purchasing a used Furch-built Avalon Gold series guitar. In his description, the seller says, "The top is shaded thick solid spruce and the back and sides are solid Indian rosewood."

Thick solid spruce?!! I would think that you would rather have a relatively thin top for improved resonance (although it would be at the cost of higher risk of damage to the top). Am I missing something?

[Beakybird]

Maybe the original tree was thick.

[The Bard Rocks]

Maybe he means "shaded thickly"?

[stringjunky]

Originally Posted by The Bard Rocks

Maybe he means "shaded thickly"?

Yeah, I would think they mean the opposite of a graduated shading, rather like Martin tend to do them. There's is more of a high contrast effect with a definite boundary.

[justonwo]

Originally Posted by personatech

I'm seriously considering purchasing a used Furch-built Avalon Gold series guitar. In his description, the seller says, "The top is shaded thick solid spruce and the back and sides are solid Indian rosewood."

Thick solid spruce?!! I would think that you would rather have a relatively thin top for improved resonance (although it would be at the cost of higher risk of damage to the top). Am I missing something?

I don’t think thick refers to the top thickness. Sounds like it was part of the description for the shading. It would be rare for someone to know or even have the means to measure the top thickness.

[Wade Hampton]

Well, if the person describing the guitar is British, what he might mean by saying that it's a "thick" solid spruce top is that, as solid spruce tops go, this one isn't particularly intelligent.

Just a thought...


whm

[tippy5]

Thick is not a unit of measure. Also not a strong selling point for folks like us.

Maybe he meant the solid spruce tone sounded thick?

Write him and ask him to measure the thickness with some calipers.

[personatech]

Thanks, all! Yeah, I was a bit surprised by the description. The guitar has a natural finish - I'm not sure what was meant by "shaded" - tinted, perhaps? It may be that. Anyway, I'll contact the seller and ask for clarification.

[YamahaGuy]

Some Guilds have bracing around the sound hole opening on the underside of the top which makes the top 'appear' thicker than it really is. Maybe that's what it is.

[Paddy1951]

I once considered purchasing a Silver series Avalon dread. It appeared to be well built. I do not recall if the top appeared to be a bit thicker than most but I do remember that the sound wasn't very good. Boxy, a bit thin, lacking volume. It was disappointing as Avalon had a good reputation being affiliated with Lowden. If you can, play it first.

[Truckjohn]

Remember that “Thick” isn’t a measurement - it’s a description... A “thick” top for me may be 0.010” thicker than a “regular” top.... 3 sheets of notebook paper more thickness....

There are a number of very famous builders who believe that thin tops do not sound good compared to thicker tops.... They say that you need to have wood there for the tone... It’s hard to argue with guys who are getting $30K to $50k per guitar...

But it’s all part of their build design philosophy.... And these guys aren’t dumb... So they would be more likely to start off with a lighter, less dense spruce and then leave it thicker - perhaps ending up with basically the same strength as a hard, dense spruce which is made “thinner”.... So while it may be thicker - it still weighs less....

[Alan Carruth]

Classical guitars usually have a 'doubler' around the sound hole; a piece of wood, often enough cut from the edge of the top beyond the ouline, that extends from the edge of the hole out to the outer circumference of rosette. Classical tops are thinner than steel strings, and the wide rosette inlay can go almost all the way through, so they reinforce that area. Sometimes it is cut back away from the edge of the hole, and sometimes not. When it's not it can make the top look quite thick. Builders such as myself, who come in from the Classical tradition, often use this sort of reinforcement around the hole on steel strings as well. Lowden guitars are often said to have very thick tops, but it's just that doubler.

At any rate, the 'correct' thickness for a top is the one that works for that particular piece of wood, in that builder's style of making. Some use a thin top with more, or heavier, bracing, and others put more of the stiffness into the top and reduce the braces a bit. A top that is too thin will fold up too soon, and one that is too thick will not produce much sound. If it sounds good, and it's structurally in good shape, it's neither too thick or too thin.

[personatech]

Originally Posted by Paddy1951

I once considered purchasing a Silver series Avalon dread. It appeared to be well built. I do not recall if the top appeared to be a bit thicker than most but I do remember that the sound wasn't very good. Boxy, a bit thin, lacking volume. It was disappointing as Avalon had a good reputation being affiliated with Lowden. If you can, play it first.

Good advice, but can't play it first. The owner does have a 7-day return policy, though. In fact, the guitar sold a few weeks ago and then *poof* it was back. I suspect someone did return it - either that or the buyer was a no-show after winning the auction. This one is an all-solid Gold series; I'd expect it to be much nicer than a Silver series.

[westman]

Originally Posted by Alan Carruth

Classical guitars usually have a 'doubler' around the sound hole; a piece of wood, often enough cut from the edge of the top beyond the ouline, that extends from the edge of the hole out to the outer circumference of rosette. Classical tops are thinner than steel strings, and the wide rosette inlay can go almost all the way through, so they reinforce that area. Sometimes it is cut back away from the edge of the hole, and sometimes not. When it's not it can make the top look quite thick. Builders such as myself, who come in from the Classical tradition, often use this sort of reinforcement around the hole on steel strings as well. Lowden guitars are often said to have very thick tops, but it's just that doubler.

The 'Lowden' school of uses something similar to what Alan is describing here - 'patch' to reinforce the open end grain AND to support the rosette.
Lowdens used to be questioned for having a THICK soundboard when viewed at the soundhole and for NOT having a truss rod !, highlighting peoples ignorance to different building techniques.
- it's just a sensible small 'patch' around that area.
Ask the seller to photograph the edge of the s/hole and post it here.

[Ozzy the dog]

Originally Posted by Wade Hampton

Well, if the person describing the guitar is British, what he might mean by saying that it's a "thick" solid spruce top is that, as solid spruce tops go, this one isn't particularly intelligent.

Just a thought...


whm

You're right, that's exactly what I thought.