Electric Cars

[SprintBob]

Originally Posted by 1neeto

And the fact that current EV technology has a finite source. How much lithium can be mined before someone says oh we are killing the environment mining all this lithium?

This is a picture of a typical lithium mine:

http://futureofenergy.web.unc.edu/picture1-2/

Not pretty at all. Just Goggle “lithium mining” and you will see a lot of the same.

My wife and I recently researched replacing the 4 stroke 6 HP Tohatsu outboard on our 24’ trimaran sailboat with an electric outboard. The Tohatsu outboard cost about $1,900, pushes the boat at 7 knots, and has a range of about 50 miles (about 6-7 hours run time on 2.5 gallons of gas). The Torqeedo electric outboard at the same HP we compared it to costs just over $8,000 and has a battery run time of 3-4 hours max. We can’t justify the additional cost or the reduction in operating range.

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by SprintBob

I’m just repeating what I have read and it seems credible. Show me where I am mis-informed.

OK for starters as I noted you were mis-informed about where most of the lithium comes from by a lot . And of corse it's all speculation But I think you will see the change over much faster than 50-75 years , again I'm guessing the sales will move to predominantly if not exclusively EV or Fuel Cell in 20 -30 years

I put about 40,000 miles a year on my current vehicle. It’s not uncommon for me to drive 300-400 miles one way for a business appointment. I cannot imagine having to plan to stop 1-2 hours for a battery recharge where I did not have to before.

As noted if you routinely travel beyond current range ability then (currently 2020) the EV is not a good option for you. But you do realize that the ranges are increasing every year, the 2021 Tesla Long Range model S is EPA rated at 400 miles

In my personal life, I am a sailor that needs to tow boats that range in weight from 500 lbs to 4,000 lbs. I don’t know what the current towing capacity of any of the EV cars is but the EV truck GM just debuted costs over $100K and probably has the same range as the EV cars not towing a trailer. What happens to the range with a trailer in tow? Like I said, EV at this point really only works for those in cities with short commutes.

Well yes and no ...Yes right as far as towing most EV are designed for and targeted at the passenger commuting market not towing, so the tongue wait and suspension is the main limiting factor and how fast towing might drain the battery is also a factor (currently)
BUT and this is a gigantic BUT, you do realize that the potential torque capability and weight towing capacity of an and electric motor is exponentially greater than IC. , by huge amounts. For example modern Freight trains are Hybrid systems with the electric traction portion providing the torque and power to haul thousands and thousands of tons.

Another thing worth considering is that in the rush to condemn fossil fuels, many either forget or do not want to acknowledge that oil produces not only fuels but hundreds if not thousands of petrochemical products and derivatives that are absolutely vital to our current standard of living. It’s shortsighted to think of oil as only a fuel source.

Absolutely true, BUT the quote "condemnation" is only about using oil as common commute transportation fuel not the oil extraction and processing for all those other items ., And that is actually one of the biggest reasons (besides carbon emission ) and is one of most logical arguments of why we desperately need to move away from using it for most transportation as fast as possible Because it is finite and the more we use on fuel the less will be available for all those other products .

I believe the advancement of EV technology is worthwhile but I see it as a supplement to current transportation technology for a long time (probably beyond my remaining lifetime).

Well depending on how old you are could be But I predict my adult children 35 and 43 will see most commuter internal combustion car manufacturing disappear in their lifetime

[seannx]

I predict my adult children 35 and 43 will see most commuter internal combustion car manufacturing disappear in their lifetime

I agree. My oldest son is 45, and he has a Bolt plus a Prius, with plans to replace the Prius with a Tesla. My youngest, 22, just graduated from UCSD, and bought his first car, a 2012 Prius.
When car shopping 4 years ago, I considered a Prius, but it worked out to be more expensive than the Accord I bought, as the fuel savings didn’t offset the price difference. My kids are fine with that, because they view the hybrid and electric cars as better for the environment and the future.
As battery technology keeps improving range, and costs go down with economies of scale and innovation, they will be not only be price competitive with petroleum fuel autos, but more economical, too. Some countries and car manufacturers are already planning for all new vehicles being electric.

[imwjl]

Originally Posted by seannx

I agree. My oldest son is 45, and he has a Bolt plus a Prius, with plans to replace the Prius with a Tesla. My youngest, 22, just graduated from UCSD, and bought his first car, a 2012 Prius.
When car shopping 4 years ago, I considered a Prius, but it worked out to be more expensive than the Accord I bought, as the fuel savings didn’t offset the price difference. My kids are fine with that, because they view the hybrid and electric cars as better for the environment and the future.
As battery technology keeps improving range, and costs go down with economies of scale and innovation, they will be not only be price competitive with petroleum fuel autos, but more economical, too. Some countries and car manufacturers are already planning for all new vehicles being electric.

Even now, 2 of the Model 3 owners I know got them for being overall competitive on price. The one looking at nice or loaded Toyota sedans calculated that his very typical suburban commute over the years he mentioned made it worth looking at.

The one friend points out that a few 300+ mile trips needed to take a break where he had no problems finding Supercharger stops, but that's nothing compared to always leaving home with a full tank for very little money.

We looked at charge networks when we were car shopping to be surprised by how many places now. This friend described here and my boss helped me realize how convenient it is otherwise.

Some of the attitude and stuff I see expressed by these changes in transportation come from classic gapminder (if you knew/know Rosling), common cognitive biases, and falling for logical fallacies pundits are so good with their audiences.

Our mindset about the future is we're probably common for US residents. 2 cars, metro area commutes, but some long distance driving too. With the kids aging and age our cars we expect the gasoline station wagon we just got to be our long distance vehicle for 5-10 years, and hope the proposed BEV minivans are out within 5.

[joe white]

One thing that I have been curious to know is the cost to "fill up" or recharge an electric vehicle once it's charge has been depleted.

I'm also curious about how the electric providers code the usage for charging an electric vehicle. Will the rate be higher, lower?

In my area, if you add a meter on your property for an extra building like a storage barn or hobby shop she shed etc, it is charged a commercial rate no matter the use and those rates are high. I had a shop at my last home that was metered that way and while I used about half the kilowatts per month than our home, the billed amount was higher than the home due to the commercial rate.

How do those charging stations work? Are you charged the rate of electricity based on your home or the local commercial rate? How are you billed or how do you pay?

[AX17609]

Originally Posted by joe white

One thing that I have been curious to know is the cost to "fill up" or recharge an electric vehicle once it's charge has been depleted.

I'm also curious about how the electric providers code the usage for charging an electric vehicle. Will the rate be higher, lower?

In my area, if you add a meter on your property for an extra building like a storage barn or hobby shop she shed etc, it is charged a commercial rate no matter the use and those rates are high. I had a shop at my last home that was metered that way and while I used about half the kilowatts per month than our home, the billed amount was higher than the home due to the commercial rate.

How do those charging stations work? Are you charged the rate of electricity based on your home or the local commercial rate? How are you billed or how do you pay?

I'll take a stab at this, though my knowledge is very limited.

Informal analyses of the cost of refilling have concluded that the cost is less per mile than gas. I can't quote a rigorous analysis, however.

Electric providers don't code for charging an EV any more than the code for charging anything else. You just plug in your car, and that's all there is to it. You can have a 220V line installed, if you want to, but the KWH charge is the same as far as I know. No special metering is required.

A couple of YouTube reviewers have described the process of using a Tesla charging station. Apparently, you set up an account with them and are billed directly. Users have described it as a no brainer.

[imwjl]

Originally Posted by joe white

One thing that I have been curious to know is the cost to "fill up" or recharge an electric vehicle once it's charge has been depleted.

I'm also curious about how the electric providers code the usage for charging an electric vehicle. Will the rate be higher, lower?

In my area, if you add a meter on your property for an extra building like a storage barn or hobby shop she shed etc, it is charged a commercial rate no matter the use and those rates are high. I had a shop at my last home that was metered that way and while I used about half the kilowatts per month than our home, the billed amount was higher than the home due to the commercial rate.

How do those charging stations work? Are you charged the rate of electricity based on your home or the local commercial rate? How are you billed or how do you pay?

The rules set by your area's public service commission or similar are what you need know.

Our pre-sales homework confirmed what the car owning friends and relatives said. It's just a 220 volt run to your garage like you might already have to your stove or dryer.

My friend always recording, calculating and quantifying - retired scientist who owns Model 3 - says his "full tanks" cost him a few $ through $12 - $13. When traveling he seeks Tesla's charge network first. My boss says he used 3 different charge networks when he's not home.

I suggest doing online homework as we did but be aware of the date when you do searches. Info from the past year told different stories than older info we found is out there and often quoted. It was newer info that gave us much needed info to realize the state of BEV vehicles.

[AX17609]

Originally Posted by imwjl

The rules set by your area's public service commission or similar are what you need know.

Our pre-sales homework confirmed what the car owning friends and relatives said. It's just a 220 volt run to your garage like you might already have to your stove or dryer.

My friend always recording, calculating and quantifying - retired scientist who owns Model 3 - says his "full tanks" cost him a few $ through $12 - $13. When traveling he seeks Tesla's charge network first. My boss says he used 3 different charge networks when he's not home.

I suggest doing online homework as we did but be aware of the date when you do searches. Info from the past year told different stories than older info we found is out there and often quoted. It was newer info that gave us much needed info to realize the state of BEV vehicles.

This is just the sort of information I was looking for when I started this thread. Thanks for contributing.

On another note, in following YouTube videos for Teslas, I have yet to come across one in which the owner says that he hated the car and wishes he had never bought it. I have seen negative reviews for other EVs, however. The Tesla user community seems remarkably content and supportive. Almost 100% of them appear to be Millennials, BTW.

[Photojeep]

I'm not trying to dispute anything anyone has said in relation of how "normal" driving and EV has become so please do not think I'm being flip with this question.

When someone runs out of gas, they have the option of somehow getting to a gas station to buy a small quantity of gas to get them to the nearest place to fill up. I've done this myself. Was I just being overly optimistic and stupid? Yep.

If I drive an EV and stay equally optimistic and stupid, how do I deal with this issue? Is my only option to be towed to the nearest charging station? Or is there some sort of "electric gas can" system that I'm not aware of?

Please know I am serious and not trying to troll this discussion. I'm very ignorant about these things so please educate me?

Thank you,
PJ

[RedJoker]

Originally Posted by AX17609

Almost 100% of them appear to be Millennials, BTW.

It's interesting you mentioned this. None of the Tesla owners I know are under 50. To be fair, they wouldn't post on youtube either.

[TomB'sox]

I have not read the thread to see what people are saying, but we have two, an i3 which we are looking to sell and a Hyundai Kona which has replaced the i3. The Kona is quite an amazing little hatchback. Over 260 miles with a single over night charge, lots of room, lots of features, and three models to meet peoples needs. I have a gas version for work.

We did not buy it to save the planet (as I believe the making of the batteries is worse than burning gas) or reasons other than we like not having to buy gas for the car, we like the driving characteristics of instant torq and very fun to drive, they are very quiet and very easy to drive. It is much less expensive than most and dollar to dollar is probably the cheapest in terms of the amount of range. At 260 miles plus, range anxiety is not a thing, but we do have gasoline cars to take on long trips. We are not into trying to plan a trip from charge station to charge station.

[imwjl]

Originally Posted by AX17609

This is just the sort of information I was looking for when I started this thread. Thanks for contributing.

On another note, in following YouTube videos for Teslas, I have yet to come across one in which the owner says that he hated the car and wishes he had never bought it. I have seen negative reviews for other EVs, however. The Tesla user community seems remarkably content and supportive. Almost 100% of them appear to be Millennials, BTW.

All the owners of Teslas, Bolts, Leafs and Hyundai I know in upper midwest are are in early 40s through their 70s. My wife and I who were serious shoppers and will be as soon as there's a BEV van are either side of 60.

I confess the Model Y was most tempting but the $20,000+ difference from what we did buy was spent on repairs and remodel for our home and cabin. I used to buy higher end vehicles but we're getting near 20 years of spending more for real estate location and quality than cars. All our homework has is believing we're 1-5 years away from far better BEV choices and will soon have a van option.

[imwjl]

Originally Posted by TomB'sox

I have not read the thread to see what people are saying, but we have two, an i3 which we are looking to sell and a Hyundai Kona which has replaced the i3. The Kona is quite an amazing little hatchback. Over 260 miles with a single over night charge, lots of room, lots of features, and three models to meet peoples needs. I have a gas version for work.

We did not buy it to save the planet (as I believe the making of the batteries is worse than burning gas) or reasons other than we like not having to buy gas for the car, we like the driving characteristics of instant torq and very fun to drive, they are very quiet and very easy to drive. It is much less expensive than most and dollar to dollar is probably the cheapest in terms of the amount of range. At 260 miles plus, range anxiety is not a thing, but we do have gasoline cars to take on long trips. We are not into trying to plan a trip from charge station to charge station.

I looked at updated sustainability info but also wanted characteristics my associates with the BEVs have. No one had anything ready to take home right away except for Bolts when we made our purchase.

Confession: We also bought in early summer when there were some exceptionally fine "Rona" incentives, and fell for a car some friends call a hen's tooth or modern dinosaur. A wagon that will be perfect for long distance shortly when we'll be in empty nest mode. We'll be swapping van with wagon as our long distance and trip vehicle.

[rokdog49]

Originally Posted by 1neeto

The internal combustion engine will eventually phase out. I have my strong opinions about this, but I’ll keep them to myself. But that’s the reality, sooner or later, we will all be “driving” electric cars.

I’m pretty sure I won’t for a couple of reasons.
First off, I’m 70 and my driving days are obviously not long term.
The two vehicles we currently own are three and five years old respectively.
Neither has more than 30,000 miles. I highly believe that they could last another 10-15 years and even if we bought a new car in the near future, the likelihood of wearing it out is so remote it’s not worth the discussion.
I have strong opinions about why this is all happening as well. Cant say those but...
I believe I’m allowed to say I think it’s nonsense.
YMMV. pun intended.

[robj144]

95% chance my next car in 2 to 3 years will be all electric... most likely a Tesla Model 3 unless I can find a killer deal on a Model S. I know a few that have one and they love them.