Disappointed with new Gibson J-45 set-up

[Ronnie DP]

The reason for even mentioning this here, is to find out if this is even possible, and can I do a truss rod adjustment to correct this.

I bought a new J-45 2 days ago. I was happy with the sound, and although the action appeared a bit higher than my Cole Clark, I was not too thrown by this, as the checklist measurements indicated that the set-up met Gibson specs, and could be lowered if I needed to.

After on/off playing since I got the guitar, my fingers were starting to get quite sore, so I did a quick check on the action. According to Gibson, and the checklist, the measurement at the 12th fret and 6th string, should be 6/64" or about 2.4mm (measured from the top of the fret to the bottom of the string). Admittedly I'm doing checks with a normal measuring tape, but it is easy enough to see that the gap seems at least 4mm. So how does a guitar leave the factory being so far out, especially when the checklist shows the exact Gibson specs. This set-up seems to be confirmed by a visual comparison with the Cole Clark. The difference is big. The Cole Clark seems to be close to the Gibson spec.

So other than the guitar being sent away for who knows how long (no local service available), the question is can I try a truss rod adjustment, as I have noticed a slight dip in the neck, although I would be surprised if this would correct the action entirely.

So if it is as easy as a truss rod adjustment, I can understand. But what I cannot understand is if the saddle will require quite a big adjustment to get to factory spec. Changing this to get a different action than factory spec I can understand.

Sorry about the long post, but your comments and advice would be appreciated.

Both guitars are on Elixir nanoweb PB light.

Thanks
Ronnie.

[HHP]

I'm wondering if you might have measured wrong. 4mm would be about 1/6 of an inch, people start thing about neck resets once the action passes 1/8 inch. To adjust, you would need to reduce the saddle height by twice the amount of change you want at the 12th fret and this would be a lot of material if the measurements are correct.

If you bought it new a couple days ago, I would go back and have the dealer look at it before you try anything on your own. Your tag indicates you are in South Africa, was there a big humidity change between dealer location and you?

[frankhond]

4mm (at the 12 fret, distance fretwire to string) is a lot.

A checklist for you:

1. Press down low E string at 12 fret and 1 fret simultaneously. Look at distance between 6 fret and string. You should be able to just barely slip through a business card there. If there is more room, you need to tighten truss rod. This will lower action. But if gap is already optimal, dont tighten any further.

3. Lay a long straightedge or similar very straight object on neck. The straightedge should land on top of the bridge (give or take a mm). If it points "through" the bridge or lower, not good. Return the guitar.

3. If you still have the guitar, look at saddle. If there is, say, at least 3-4 mm material available, you can lower the action some more. 2mm saddle will change 1mm at 12 fret.

Btw it's normal for a guitar to "set" some after it leaves the factory. Shame on the dealer for not adjusting it.

[AndrewG]

A slight bowing of the neck is quite normal, and some players prefer a little relief. Personally I like my necks dead straight.
Bear in mind that although a guitar may be set up to factory spec when built, it's still a new guitar and things move around a little until it settles down. That said a factory setup is generic and won't suit everyone, so I suggest a trip to a technician to get the action adjusted to whatever feels comfortable for you-there's no need to send it back to Gibson. I have yet to come across a guitar-any guitar-that I don't feel needs tailoring to suit my personal needs.

Don't use the truss rod for adjusting action; that isn't its purpose, and it should only be used as a component part of a complete setup which includes the nut and saddle. If you do want to straighten the neck to compensate for it being pulled forward, then do a quarter turn clockwise at a time and wait for the neck to 'catch up' with the adjustment. This will slightly reduce the string height but only around the centre portion of the neck-the extremes at the nut and bridge saddle won't be affected. Best to leave it overnight and check it again.
Lastly, leave the measuring tape in the drawer! Your hands will tell you whether the guitar feels right.

[michaeljohnr]

Truss rods are not for adjusting action.

[Ronnie DP]

Here is an image showing the gap.



OK no image. Not sure what went wrong.


Still reading the replies.

Thanks for the help

[Ronnie DP]

Image

http://www.pbase.com/ronniedp/image/149419618

Here is a link. Cant get the "insert image" to work. The lighter strip is about 3mm.
Ronnie.

[RappahannockRag]

If its new and you're concerned it is out of factory spec, I wouldn't even consider doing anything to it myself or bringing it to a tech. I'd take it back to the place I bought it asap and express my concerns.

[Ned Milburn]

Brand new factory made (even factory "hand made") guitars are rarely fully or properly set up. Especially the nut slots; they are often still way too high!! Nut slots that are too high create out of tune (sharp) notes especially in the lower positions, and they yield a guitar that causes incredible left hand fatigue, again, especially in the lower positions.

Try a capo on the 2nd or 3rd fret and see if this improves the situation.

Also, here is a reprint of what I have posted 1/2 a dozen or more times about checking nut slot depth:

REPRINT:

Incidentally, whenever you buy a new guitar, you should always check the nut slots and insist that the vendor have them adjusted properly before purchase. The nut slots on most guitars (including guitars up to 2000 dollars and more) are rarely cut down to the proper depth, since to do a careful and accurate job of this requires about 25 minutes or so by a skilled craftsman. To add this extra time to the production line would require guitar manufacturers to charge more money for their guitars, making them less competitive on the market. Hence, manufacturers choose to drop in nuts made in bulk that are higher than the required minimum nut slot height.

To check the nut slot heights, press the string on the WRONG side of the second fret, then while sighting from the side, repeatedly press the string down to the first fret and release to see how high the string is above the fret. A proper nut slot depth should yield a few hairs of height, but no more than 1/2 a high E string's thickness. (1/2 thickness would be too high, IMO.) About 1/6 to 1/4 thickness is probably prime, but I have never measured - I just developed an understanding over the many guitars I have worked on. My description is just trying to pass along some information via cyber-words, so try to understand the intent in it, rather than take it 100% literally and dogmatically.

There are many subtleties in the fine tuning of nut slot depth (such as progressively higher increments of height as the strings become larger, or just having the low A and E strings cut a bit higher for fingerpickers with heavy thumb technique), but the above paragraph will steer you in the right direction for a self assessment.

[charles Tauber]

I suggest reading Basic Guitar Setup 101 from http://charlestauber.com/luthier/Resources.html.

Once you've read it, you can decide whether or not to return the guitar to where you purchased it. You should have determined before you bought it if it played satisfactorily. If it didn't, you should have included as a condition of sale that they set it up to your satisfaction.

Part of it is your liability for purchasing an instrument that plays differently than what you want. What, if anything, the store will do about it depends upon their purchase/return/guarantee policies. Beyond that it is good-will on the part of the store from which you purchased it to do anything about it.

Consider this situation part of your education about guitars. Sorry if this sounds harsh.

[Ronnie DP]

Originally Posted by charles Tauber

I suggest reading Basic Guitar Setup 101 from http://charlestauber.com/luthier/Resources.html.

Once you've read it, you can decide whether or not to return the guitar to where you purchased it. You should have determined before you bought it if it played satisfactorily. If it didn't, you should have included as a condition of sale that they set it up to your satisfaction.

Part of it is your liability for purchasing an instrument that plays differently than what you want. What, if anything, the store will do about it depends upon their purchase/return/guarantee policies. Beyond that it is good-will on the part of the store from which you purchased it to do anything about it.

Consider this situation part of your education about guitars. Sorry if this sounds harsh.

Thanks for the help.

Clearly you are very experienced with the technical details of guitars (and I mean that).
My question was about a guitar being nearly 100% outside spec at the 12th fret. Not just a small adjustment required to suit my needs. It was not that obvious playing down the bottom of the neck. At that point the action difference felt much less, and although it felt a bit higher than my Cole Clark ( which may be on the low side for all I know) not easy for a "person like me" to pick up on.

Thanks again. I will study your publication, but it may be above my technical expertise.

Ronnie.

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by Ronnie DP

My question was about a guitar being nearly 100% outside spec at the 12th fret. Not just a small adjustment required to suit my needs.

I understand that. It doesn't really change anything. The "factory spec" doesn't really mean much. It may have left the "factory" set to the spec - you can't prove that it did or didn't. A lot can happen after it leaves the factory for which Gibson isn't necessarily liable. Even so, the "factory spec" is a very general setup aimed at some imaginary "average" player, and so that they see less warranty work.

I understand that you'd like some ammunition to be able to say, "See it is 100% out of spec [whatever that means], so it is faulty, fix it or take it back". The bottom line is that you played the instrument, determined that it was good enough to buy, and bought it. Later, you decided, "not so much". What is the store's return or guarantee policy? Did you determine that prior to purchase? (If not, you should have.)

So, at this point you are at the mercy of the store's policy and their good-will. It isn't their fault that you purchased a guitar that you later decided was "out of spec". (You didn't buy it sight-unseen on speculation with the condition that if it didn't meet your satisfaction you could return it.) You can't prove that the action hasn't changed since you bought it, and they can't prove that it was at "factory spec" when it left their store. So, you see the situation. Resolution depends on the store's policies and good-will. Ditto for Gibson. There is potential risk in any business transaction: one should know the terms and conditions of that transaction prior to entering into it.

Chances are, the guitar is not "defective" and only needs some relatively minor adjustment by someone skilled. Chances are, the good-will of the store will be happy to "make it right" by whatever means is necessary.

Use it as a learning experience about both guitars and business transactions.

[Ronnie DP]

Originally Posted by HHP

I'm wondering if you might have measured wrong. 4mm would be about 1/6 of an inch, people start thing about neck resets once the action passes 1/8 inch. To adjust, you would need to reduce the saddle height by twice the amount of change you want at the 12th fret and this would be a lot of material if the measurements are correct.

If you bought it new a couple days ago, I would go back and have the dealer look at it before you try anything on your own. Your tag indicates you are in South Africa, was there a big humidity change between dealer location and you?

See link to image. I have checked again. The measurement is about right.
The humidity will probably vary from 50-60% this time of year.

Ronnie.

[Ronnie DP]

Originally Posted by charles Tauber

I understand that. It doesn't really change anything. The "factory spec" doesn't really mean much. It may have left the "factory" set to the spec - you can't prove that it did or didn't. A lot can happen after it leaves the factory for which Gibson isn't necessarily liable. Even so, the "factory spec" is a very general setup aimed at some imaginary "average" player, and so that they see less warranty work.

I understand that you'd like some ammunition to be able to say, "See it is 100% out of spec [whatever that means], so it is faulty, fix it or take it back". The bottom line is that you played the instrument, determined that it was good enough to buy, and bought it. Later, you decided, "not so much". What is the store's return or guarantee policy? Did you determine that prior to purchase? (If not, you should have.)

So, at this point you are at the mercy of the store's policy and their good-will. It isn't their fault that you purchased a guitar that you later decided was "out of spec". (You didn't buy it sight-unseen on speculation with the condition that if it didn't meet your satisfaction you could return it.) You can't prove that the action hasn't changed since you bought it, and they can't prove that it was at "factory spec" when it left their store. So, you see the situation. Resolution depends on the store's policies and good-will. Ditto for Gibson. There is potential risk in any business transaction: one should know the terms and conditions of that transaction prior to entering into it.

Chances are, the guitar is not "defective" and only needs some relatively minor adjustment by someone skilled. Chances are, the good-will of the store will be happy to "make it right" by whatever means is necessary.

Use it as a learning experience about both guitars and business transactions.

I understand what you are saying. Here is my take:

1) I was assured by the dealer that the guitar has a lifetime guarantee, except if abused by me in some way.

2) with the guitar comes a QC checklist, presented to me by the dealer. Do I not have a right to expect the guitar to meet the spec (there is no statement, nor was I advised, that the actual measurement may vary at time of purchase. Fineprint ). I can expect on closer inspection to find some variation, but changing from a QC measurement of 2.4mm to at least 4mm? If this ( the spec variation) is a fair expectation, then I guess I have been rather naive.

Having said that I will be taking the guitar back to the dealer. And I will put up one heck of a fight



Ronnie.

[Martin Gibson]

I'll chime in here and recommend a professional set up. I bought a new J 45 about 4 years ago. After playing it a couple of months, I decided I just didn't like it. It wasn't comfortable to play more than about a half hour at a time. Decided to sell it. Before I was able to sell it, I decided to invest a few bucks in a set up. I really liked the sound, and it was a nice contrast to my other instruments so, I thought it was worth a shot. Took it to a guitar tech that is a pretty well recognized guitar wizard in my area. He took one look at it and said "oh my". He leveled the frets, filed a couple of the nut slots, filled another one and turned the truss rod about a 1/4 turn. Plays like a different instrument. I gig with it now. Bunch of little things added up to a BIG difference in playability. Key is finding a tech that knows what he's doing.