The importance of resin versus carbon fiber

[mountainmaster]

I think there may be a small elephant in this room.

When we speak of carbon fiber guitars, we actually mean carbon fiber infused with epoxy resin. Without resin our guitars would be just flabby pieces of cloth. They need resin for strength and stiffness.

Blackbird Guitars has proven with their ekoa material that you don't need carbon fiber to produce a great sounding weather resistant instrument.

So what do you think is more important to the sound properties of the instrument: Resin or carbon fiber? My vote goes to resin.

Maybe this forum could be called "Composit Guitars" to make it more inclusive.

[mountainmaster]

Crap! I misspelled "carbon fiber" in my poll and it seems I cannot edit it.

[David Eastwood]

How would you ever know, given that it’s impossible to build a guitar out of either component alone?

[Captain Jim]

Can you build a wood guitar without glue?

While I've never heard anyone refer to their wood guitar as a "wood and glue" guitar, the manufacturers of wood guitars often tout the type of glue they use as an "improvement."

[RP]

I'd go with the third choice: Who knows???

[mountainmaster]

If it was already a known fact I would not have made a poll.

Do we want to find out? Then I propose an experiment to our brave CF guitar builders somewhat along the lines of the Taylor shipping pallet guitar.

Instead of carbon fiber use any old rags you can find, then infuse that with your resin recipe and finish the guitar as you normally would.

[David Eastwood]

Originally Posted by mountainmaster

If it was already a known fact I would not have made a poll.

Do we want to find out? Then I propose an experiment to our brave CF guitar builders somewhat along the lines of the Taylor shipping pallet guitar.

Instead of carbon fiber use any old rags you can find, then infuse that with your resin recipe and finish the guitar as you normally would.

If ‘any old rags’ would do, why would a manufacturer use expensive CF? It’s not just filler material.

I’m reminded of Yamaha’s experiments with bamboo guitars a couple of decades ago (or maybe longer). They made some very pretty looking acoustics out of strips of bamboo (as there’s no such thing as ‘sheet’ bamboo) - but there was so much glue required to hold them together, that they really didn’t sound very good.

[Earl49]

I voted for carbon fiber, because the properties of the fabric have much to do with the final strength, internal damping, stiffness and therefore tone. For example, I own a Blackbird Lucky 13 made with CF and have played several of their ekoa (linen fabric) instruments like the Savoy and El Capitan, and own a Farallon ekoa ukulele. That is one example of the same builder using two different composites at different times. Rainsong also used an all-woven material for their Classics, then switched to a mix of glass fiber and carbon fiber for their Hybrid series. There were tonal differences to be sure, but the results were more alike than radically changed.

Wood is a composite material too -- cellulose fibers embedded in a lignin/resin matrix, versus carbon or glass or fabric fibers in a polyurethane or epoxy resin matrix.
Like RP, I'd go for a third choice of "who knows"?

[Captain Jim]

Am I "mis-remembering" that some (probably few) e-koa owners have reported issues with the construction on their Blackbird guitars? This is not meant as any kind of knock on Blackbird; I've played a Savoy and thought it was a nice guitar. The e-koa is a flax linen base rather than carbon fiber. The e-koa has already been welcomed on this sub-forum.

[Doubleneck]

I think there would be little question carbon fiber would be the strongest, they make airplanes out of it. But a guitar would not have to be that strong, but I like that it is.

[tbeltrans]

In Minnesota, recreational marijuana is about to be legalized. Maybe some entrepreneuring soul will decide to make guitars from hemp and use resin from all the bongs that will be fired up later this summer. It will be straight out of a Cheech and Chong movie.

I have already suggested to the rest of our condo association board that we invest in junk food vending machines to help with the cost of keeping the association financially sound. Personally, I have no desire to imbibe in either pot or junk food.

Anyway, back to the question - is the magic in the resin or the carbon fiber material? My answer - the question is best posed to those who work with this stuff - the experts. Over the course of developing expertise in my own career, I also came to recognize how little I know about so many other fields.

Tony

[SpruceTop]

Originally Posted by tbeltrans

In Minnesota, recreational marijuana is about to be legalized. Maybe some entrepreneuring soul will decide to make guitars from hemp and use resin from all the bongs that will be fired up later this summer. It will be straight out of a Cheech and Chong movie.

I have already suggested to the rest of our condo association board that we invest in junk food vending machines to help with the cost of keeping the association financially sound. Personally, I have no desire to imbibe in either pot or junk food.

Anyway, back to the question - is the magic in the resin or the carbon fiber material? My answer - the question is best posed to those who work with this stuff - the experts. Over the course of developing expertise in my own career, I also came to recognize how little I know about so many other fields.

Tony

Tony, LOLROTF!

[tbeltrans]

Originally Posted by Captain Jim

Am I "mis-remembering" that some (probably few) e-koa owners have reported issues with the construction on their Blackbird guitars? This is not meant as any kind of knock on Blackbird; I've played a Savoy and thought it was a nice guitar. The e-koa is a flax linen base rather than carbon fiber. The e-koa has already been welcomed on this sub-forum.

No, you are not mis-remembering this. I do recall seeing a post from a guy in (I think) either Singapore or Shanghai whose e-koa guitar fell apart in the humidity. I suspect that Blackbird would have likely addressed the issue with some modification to the formulation, but I don't know that for a fact.

Tony

[Earl49]

Now that you mention it, I remember that episode too. I recall that he was mostly ticked off about a lack of warranty support from across the world, ie: free shipping both ways and repairs. Blackbird has never claimed to be "...totally impervious to heat or humidity...." nor have the other CF makers either. Impervious is different from resistant or durable. But not long afterward they started offering a finish on their instruments - for a considerable upcharge. Satin is $395 and gloss is $695. Or maybe I just noticed that option after the extreme humidity issue came up?

The basic ekoa instruments have no finish. My Farallon ukulele has not been a problem over the last five years, but I don't subject it to extremes of moisture or heat. It has seen plenty of sweat from playing at luaus in the summer, but that wipes off just fine, leaving no damage that is perceptible. I would not play it on a floaty in the pool though, or take it kayaking without a dry bag.

[Barb1]

Hi Captain Jim,
I own the first Blackbird Savoy sent out to a customer and I have never had any problem with it's construction. It is a GREAT guitar!
Barb