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  #31  
Old 03-28-2021, 08:06 AM
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Bob Womack Bob Womack is offline
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I'm thinking about this issue a bit. I never used thumb behind until I studied classical but it immediately opened up new techniques and capabilities to me. Here I am using the mid-neck thumb technique in the middle of a stretched scalar run on electric in 1979:


Same guitar and technique, 2014:


It works great on thick, wide necks but, as you can see, it also can be used on a Les Paul with a 1960s neck contour.

However, there are techniques that don't lend themselves to execution with the thumb behind, such as bending strings and lateral, wrist-centered vibrato. If you use center-back thumb position in these techniques the fulcrum of the index proximal joint is shifted away from the neck, giving no support point and forcing the wrist into a far more obtuse position during the bend. It basically moves the muscular function from forearm to fingers, which isn't nearly as stable. Here is a shot from the same period with my band mate Bob Haymes and myself in mid-bend and thumbs anchored on the near-side binding:


It is important to note that classical doesn't even consider using either of these techniques. The question becomes, "In classical, did the commitment to hand position preclude use of the technique or did preclusion of the technique allow the hand position?" Inquiring minds want to know the answer to this chicken-and-egg question.



Meanwhile it is well-known that Segovia was a Marshall man. He didn't use them when I saw him at Avery Fisher Hall in NY, though.

Bob
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  #32  
Old 03-28-2021, 10:28 AM
nightchef nightchef is offline
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To Bob’s question about the origins of thumb-under in classical—is it possible this was a holdover from lute playing, with lutes often having relatively wide necks to accommodate doubled string courses etc.? I mean, you’d have a hard time using a thumb-on-the-edge technique with this baby:



Even now, classical guitars tend to have wider necks than steel-string guitars.

OTOH, there’s Vermeer’s 17th-century painting of someone playing something like an early parlor guitar:



A little hard to tell how many strings there are here (could be anything from 6 to 16), and that might be because Vermeer himself was fuzzy on it. But the left hand position is cowboy-chord-ready, and her right hand is holding a pick in a familiar way.

Maybe there have always been these two streams in left-hand technique: one with thumb underneath, derived from lute playing, adapted to wide necks and optimized for contrapuntal music, and the other with thumb riding along the side, adapted to narrower necks and optimized for chordal playing to accompany a singer.
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  #33  
Old 03-30-2021, 02:33 PM
schrectacular schrectacular is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cecil6243 View Post
and his comment was, "I can't play that song." I asked, "why not?" He replied, "I can't play the F chord so I avoid songs with an F chord." I still shake my head when I think of it.
Silly man. Everyone knows it's the B chord that's the one to avoid!
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  #34  
Old 03-30-2021, 02:42 PM
schrectacular schrectacular is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonPR View Post
BTW, I still don't own a Martin - but I do now have a very nice Yamaha LL-11 and (since just a few weeks ago) a Cordoba C9 classical. I nearly deserve a Martin.
I don't deserve a Martin for the same reasons but ALSO because I'm clumsy and careless and ding it up... my solution - get really lucky on craigslist for the absolute cheapest Martin that is made in America, secondhand (the older 000-15, without the M). Advantage is it came pre-dinged so I don't feel so bad about dinging it. Downside is it's mahogany with satin finish so if you look at it wrong it gets a dent.

But holy molé is it fun to play! I bet mine was cheaper than your Yamaha, but they are of a similar class. And Yamaha makes a darn good guitar too, nothing to scoff at.

Oh, I forgot the biggest downside. Having a Martin only makes you want a nicer Martin. I've never watched more guitar reviews than I have AFTER I bought what is basically my dream-guitar that I've been waiting years to buy. Funny how that works...
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  #35  
Old 04-05-2021, 01:28 PM
edcmat-l1 edcmat-l1 is offline
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I move my hand position around a good bit. I was taught Classical style originally so it was thumb on the back of the neck. Now I HAVE to do that for a lot of chords to play them cleanly. That is not flub open strings. In general I do not palm the neck and I never use my thumb on the low string. Although I do admire those that do/can.
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  #36  
Old 04-05-2021, 02:00 PM
schrectacular schrectacular is offline
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Your reply reminds me that I never replied in earnest...

I've actually been polling some friends about the way I hold the guitar. I also move around a lot, thumb fixed, in the crook of my thumb with thumb hanging up, also wrap around for F chords and D inversions sometimes if I need the pinky for other business on the high strings.

The one thing I notice I do a LOT is park the ball of my index finger on the back of the neck, at the bottom. I do it for cowboy chords and also for single-note lead type stuff. I feel like this is bad form (which I define as "likely to cause injury"), but it really feels natural. I asked a very accomplished guitar friend (great player and teacher, Dutch) and he does the same thing and has never had strain problems because of it.
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  #37  
Old 04-07-2021, 05:52 AM
Robin, Wales Robin, Wales is offline
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You'll think you have the perfect answer to suit all players - the perfect hand position - the perfect guitar position.

And then you'll meet me! A missing first finger phalanx and a thumb that wont bend past 30 deg. So barr chords are out; and thumb over the top chords are out.

I create my own arrangements, modify the chord shapes, and everything works out surprisingly OK.

My hand work and guitar positioning leans more towards Doc Watson than Segovia. I never heard Segovia sing a song that took my fancy.
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