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  #61  
Old 07-09-2018, 09:47 AM
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fazool fazool is offline
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I think a lot of casual science-thinkers misunderstand the whole concept of scientific thought.

The "laws" and theories of science do not actually tell you how the universe (and reality and everything around our existence) actually "work".

"Science" does not "define" the universe around us.

"Science" is humankind's attempt to describe and explain everything around us. Science is nothing but the pursuit of an explanation that we can live with.

The laws are just those things that fit within the other laws and which all agree with each other.
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  #62  
Old 07-09-2018, 09:56 AM
buddyhu buddyhu is offline
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Saying that theories are "mere opinions", is like regarding a farmer who gets a poor harvest one year as being just a guy throwing seeds around. A farmer knows a lot...he has to...but he can't know and predict and control everything that pertains to a good harvest. A scientific theorist cannot know or control or predict everything that he is hoping his theory might account for...but he isn't just throwing opinions around.

Yes, it is true that theory is not fact...theories are an attempt to understand and relate facts, and they invariably have areas where there explanations and predictions are incomplete. But let's not slip into black-or-white thinking.
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  #63  
Old 07-09-2018, 09:58 AM
Kerbie Kerbie is offline
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Another good one I read a few years back was Simon Singh's, Big Bang: The Origin of the Universe. My fun reading in recent years has been dominated by a different, less interesting topic. What are some recent good books you guys have read on the subject?
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  #64  
Old 07-09-2018, 10:00 AM
Jobe Jobe is offline
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Theory: Systematically organized knowledge,esp a set of assumptions or statements devised to explain a phenomenon or class of phenomena. 2: Abstract reasoning: speculation. That is from the dictionary. You can define theory all you want but don't get confused. It is what it is.
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  #65  
Old 07-09-2018, 10:07 AM
Silurian Silurian is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fazool View Post
I think a lot of casual science-thinkers misunderstand the whole concept of scientific thought.

The "laws" and theories of science do not actually tell you how the universe (and reality and everything around our existence) actually "work".

"Science" does not "define" the universe around us.

"Science" is humankind's attempt to describe and explain everything around us. Science is nothing but the pursuit of an explanation that we can live with.

The laws are just those things that fit within the other laws and which all agree with each other.
"Science does not define the universe around us"

Of course this opens a different can of worms. The role of the observer, collapsing wave functions, etc.

Some would argue that science, ie human beings do indeed define the universe around them.
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  #66  
Old 07-09-2018, 10:26 AM
Jobe Jobe is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silurian View Post
"Science does not define the universe around us"

Of course this opens a different can of worms. The role of the observer, collapsing wave functions, etc.

Some would argue that science, ie human beings do indeed define the universe around them.
I am leaning towards this thought. You should take a peek at Tom Campbell's big toe theory. (It's free online). Tom see's this existence as virtual. If you or someone else isn't witnessing what is around you it is not there. If you stumble upon a place in the woods it appears. It's all in the program but it takes you to bring it up. Like a video game where you have three doors as options. If you take the middle door that is all you will experience. But the other two doors are there in the system but not experienced. Fascinating. But if true it shows the power of your thought and action as you experience the world.
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  #67  
Old 07-09-2018, 10:31 AM
Dirk Hofman Dirk Hofman is offline
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Not really. Any honest scientist will admit to conjecture. We don't fully know what's up in the universe. I suspect in the end we will all slap our foreheads and say, "Oh yeah. So that was the thing!"
A scientific theory is not something cooked up by one person or based on conjecture. It is an explanation based on evidence from multiple disciplines based on all available evidence. It is peer reviewed at every stage, it is falsifiable, and has passed a gauntlet of challenges from scientists across multiple disciplines.

A hypothesis might contain conjecture. They are very different things.

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Theory is theory. Nothing more and nothing less. Definitive is what we seek. Theory is conjecture as we struggle towards the final answer.
This is simply not the definition of a scientific theory. It is vey different than the colloquial use of the word
.
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  #68  
Old 07-09-2018, 10:44 AM
Jobe Jobe is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirk Hofman View Post
A scientific theory is not something cooked up by one person or based on conjecture. It is an explanation based on evidence from multiple disciplines based on all available evidence. It is peer reviewed at every stage, it is falsifiable, and has passed a gauntlet of challenges from scientists across multiple disciplines.

A hypothesis might contain conjecture. They are very different things.
Right. I like how science judges science. Is it the end-all of the 'theory'? It is a point along the trail be it right or wrong that is walked. Many times science has had to check their compass. I'm glad they are still exploring. We've come a long way. But we haven't reached camp.
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  #69  
Old 07-09-2018, 11:10 AM
Jobe Jobe is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirk Hofman View Post
A scientific theory is not something cooked up by one person or based on conjecture. It is an explanation based on evidence from multiple disciplines based on all available evidence. It is peer reviewed at every stage, it is falsifiable, and has passed a gauntlet of challenges from scientists across multiple disciplines.

A hypothesis might contain conjecture. They are very different things.



This is simply not the definition of a scientific theory. It is vey different than the colloquial use of the word
.
I am a humble 'colloquial' citizen. Since when did science replace 'theory' with fact?
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  #70  
Old 07-09-2018, 11:22 AM
N+1 N+1 is offline
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Since when did science replace 'theory' with fact?
It never did, nor could it. If it did, it would no longer be science, but dogma.

Every scientific theory is provisional, because we can never know the results of tomorrow's experiment in advance. On the other hand, therein lies the strength of the scientific method: it continually tests its models and amends or discards them if they fail reliable experimental tests.
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  #71  
Old 07-09-2018, 11:31 AM
seannx seannx is offline
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From Merriam-Webster:

Quote:
Definition of theory
plural theories
1 : a plausible or scientifically acceptable general principle or body of principles offered to explain phenomena - the wave theory of light
2 a : a belief, policy, or procedure proposed or followed as the basis of action - her method is based on the theory that all children want to learn
b : an ideal or hypothetical set of facts, principles, or circumstances —often used in the phrase in theory - in theory, we have always advocated freedom for all
3 a : a hypothesis assumed for the sake of argument or investigation
b : an unproved assumption : conjecture
c : a body of theorems presenting a concise systematic view of a subject theory of equations
4 : the general or abstract principles of a body of fact, a science, or an art music theory
5 : abstract thought : speculation
6 : the analysis of a set of facts in their relation to one another
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  #72  
Old 07-09-2018, 11:34 AM
RedJoker RedJoker is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seannx View Post
From Merriam-Webster:
If it helps, Merriam-Webster also explains theory in the context of science:

https://www.merriam-webster.com/word...d-theory-usage
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  #73  
Old 07-09-2018, 11:35 AM
Jobe Jobe is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N+1 View Post
It never did, nor could it. If it did, it would no longer be science, but dogma.

Every scientific theory is provisional, because we can never know the results of tomorrow's experiment in advance. On the other hand, therein lies the strength of the scientific method: it continually tests its models and amends or discards them if they fail reliable experimental tests.
I agree. That is sound reasoning. I'm having trouble with people that think todays science has all the answers. That is simply not true. All experiments prove out? No. They beg the next question. I respect the word 'Theory' and I don't think it's thrown around randomly. It is a work in progress.
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  #74  
Old 07-09-2018, 11:40 AM
architype architype is offline
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Our whole universe was in a hot dense state.
Then nearly 14 billion years ago expansion started, wait.
The earth began to cool, the autotrophs began to drool.
Neanderthals developed tools.
We built a wall. We built the pyramids.
Math, science, history, unraveling the mysteries
that all started with the Big Bang! Hey!

Australopithecus would really have been sick of us
debating why we are here, they're catching deer,
we're catching viruses.
Religion or astronomy, Descartes or Deuteronomy,
it all started with a Big Bang!

Music and mythology, Einstein and astrology,
it all started with the Big Bang!

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  #75  
Old 07-09-2018, 12:36 PM
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BrunoBlack BrunoBlack is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by architype View Post
Our whole universe was in a hot dense state.
Then nearly 14 billion years ago expansion started, wait.
The earth began to cool, the autotrophs began to drool.
Neanderthals developed tools.
We built a wall. We built the pyramids.
Math, science, history, unraveling the mysteries
that all started with the Big Bang! Hey!

Australopithecus would really have been sick of us
debating why we are here, they're catching deer,
we're catching viruses.
Religion or astronomy, Descartes or Deuteronomy,
it all started with a Big Bang!

Music and mythology, Einstein and astrology,
it all started with the Big Bang!

Is that a barenaked theory, conjecture or fact?
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