Mandolin ? and advice/opinions - Page 2

devellis · #16 06-19-2009, 08:56 AM

Wade, I was confident that you knew the details I was providing. I just thought I'd supply them for others who might not.

robkreole · #17 06-19-2009, 10:41 AM

I want to put in my 2 cents for Weber mandos. I have one and really love the tone and playability. I have played at jam sessions with a lot of guitars, violins, banjos, accordions and more, and that Weber mando holds its own. If I was going to get another one, I'd look seriously at the Collings mandos. Also, a friend has an Eastman that is a nice instrument.

Rob K.

raulb · #18 06-19-2009, 11:31 AM

I have had a '53 Martin A-style and an Ibanez F-5 style now for nearly 30 years and enjoy them both. Neither of them were all that expensive when I bought them (Martin used, Ibanez new).

As has been said, they are both very different mandos and are built for different styles of playing. Yet I do play both folk, CW, and celtic on both. Both styles sound different and project differently.

Oh, someone said that more than a guitar, mandos sound different from the listener perspective than they do from the player's. That is SOOOOOOO true. My lousy playing aside, I sometimes wonder why my mandos do not sound fantastic like the ones others are playing. But in reality, mine sound just the same. It is just the perspective and position of the listener. As a player, you will never know what others hear, what your mando sounds like live, as you play it.

I have played several different brands, types, and prices of mando since buying my Ibanez (my first) and I have never found one that I liked better*. I do not care for Gibson or Weber mandos at all, just don't like the sound of Gibson the or feel of Weber. This is especially true considering both are A LOT more expensive, they are just not, in my opinion, a step up. So my point is, don't let price determine what you buy, you can get a great less expensive mando and be in hog heaven.

* That being said, I recently played a Collings and if I had had the money, I would have bought it. This was one of the less expensive F-style models they make, but the playability and sound were mesmerizing.

Yet some people would never own anything but a Gibson and others have come to like Webers. To them I say, "great, I am glad to hear it."

My concern Daryl, however, is that you are considering buying a fairly expensive instrument without knowing how to play it, just to own one. Playing a mando is not like playing a guitar. In some ways it is harder and in other ways it is easier.

If you and your wife just "want a mandolin around the house," I would suggest that you buy a less expensive instrument and learn to play it. If you decide you like playing the mando, THEN get a Gibson, Weber, Collings, Breedlove, or other higher end mando.

An alternative would be to purchase a used mandolin. You should be able to get a great deal on one. Used mandos do not seem to hold their value as well as guitars may, so there are some great values out there. Can you imagine getting a 60 year old Gibson guitar for about a grand? Well, you can find 60 year old Gibson mandos in great condition at about that price.

Oh, and a big

for the Mandolin Cafe Forum. It is not as active as this forum, but it is a great place to learn about mandolins. I am not sure the mods of this forum will let this URL get by, but here it is: http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/

biggs2 · #19 06-19-2009, 05:29 PM

I'd suggest looking for a used Breedlove McKenzie master class K-body F-hole mando to try. They have great projection, balanced tone and chop, IMHO that rivels some of the best Gibson F bodies (at least ones that I've played). It's my understanding that Breedlove makes only about 12 McKenzie's a year.

Not plugging this particular store, but here is an example of what appears to be a nice used McKenzie:

http://www.elderly.com/vintage/items/90U-5285.htm

re17 · #20 06-20-2009, 01:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by raulb

My concern Daryl, however, is that you are considering buying a fairly expensive instrument without knowing how to play it, just to own one. Playing a mando is not like playing a guitar. In some ways it is harder and in other ways it is easier.

I'd have to echo that. As someone who finally took the mandolin plunge a month ago after talking about it on and off for a while, I must say the learning curve is steeper than I'd expected. The most obvious problem is that I still can't get used to the much higher string tension; part of this could be down to the fact that my instrument might need a better setup, but I don't even have a way of telling if it does (whereas I do know how guitars ought to play). So be prepared to become a beginner in all kinds of respects.

The mandolin I got was an inexpensive Chinese-made instrument...

...and I must say, considering my present (in)ability and level of commitment (not super-high), it was absolutely the right choice. I'm a bit surprised that most people are suggesting quite fancy instruments for you; I think that would be the next step, if indeed the time comes to take that step.

Mandolincafe has been mentioned by several people already and I joined within a day of my mandolin arriving; I really should make use of it more.

Richard

devellis · #21 06-20-2009, 08:50 AM

The challenges that people report having with their mandolins are part of the reason why I recommended getting the best you can afford. While a good setup can help a lot with some modestly priced mandolins, others can have issues that will make them a bear to play under even the best circumstances. I have an inexpensive Kentucky that's set up well and plays well but many other instruments in its price range would be a real challenge to set up because of fundamentally poor geometry that can't be fixed with the usual setup procedures.

Mandolins are strange critters in many ways. They are smaller than guitars but cost more and you seem to need to go higher up the price scale to get a decent one. The exception is flat-back mandolins. Ones like the Big Muddy instruments (as an example) are quite decent even at their modest price point. But when you get into curved tops and backs, it's tough to turn out a good instrument cheaply and a lot of low-end instruments of this type care more about looking like a high-end mandolin than playing like one. It's a jungle out there!

Wade Hampton · #22 06-20-2009, 11:46 AM

Richard -

I think the reason many of us on this thread are encouraging Daryl to consider the higher end mandolins is that he's already done the basic hands-on investigation of what's out there, and he seems financially able and willing to commit to a professional grade instrument. His posts haven't been "Gosh, you think I ought to stick my toe into these waters?" so much as "Which end of the pool should I jump in at?"

I also agree with Bob that mandolin is quite different from guitar in many ways, and getting an inexpensive instrument to begin with can also mean struggling with some geometry issues if the neck hasn't been set correctly. Getting a Gibson to start with should allow Daryl to bypass at least some of those speedbumps in his path.

As for your own mandolin, if you haven't had a stringed instrument repair tech look at it and set it up, you probably should. As a Kentucky mandolin home dealer I find that the instruments sometimes come in with their string actions too high at the nut (although that has changed dramatically for the better in the past several years, at least with the various brands owned by Saga.) If you're finding the mandolin awfully tight, the height of the strings at the nut is the first thing I would look at.

Part of it, though, is just the nature of the instrument. Guitarists who try to bend strings on mandolin, for example, are usually frustrated by the stiffness of the double course strings.

While there are many similarities between guitar and mandolin, there are quite a few differences, as well. Learning how to cope with those differences are part of the learning process, I suppose.

Wade Hampton Miller

re17 · #23 06-20-2009, 04:18 PM

Agree with the points above, except it's not just a question of finances but also the investment in time, in terms of playing the thing once you get it. Of course in an ideal world one would pay a good sum for a fantastic instrument that plays well, but that doesn't guarantee that the buyer will actually take to the instrument as the number of newish guitars on sale in Classifieds proves. And with CNC-guided manufacturing these days, as with guitars, I would guess that even the cheaper instruments have relatively few issues (though I note the points about arched tops and backs being trickier) ; I sampled about 3 or 4 cheap A-style mandolins before getting my Washburn and they all seemed to play and intonate okay.

As for the Washburn, I did check the string height at the nut as I do mainly play close to the nut at the moment - movable four-string chords are still hard for me to play cleanly. I don't think there's an issue with the string height; I have already reduced the height of the bridge somewhat and that seems to have helped a bit. I will eventually put a new set of strings on and maybe lower the bridge a little bit more. If that doesn't help playability I'll let a tech have a look at it, if I can find someone who knows about instruments other than guitars.

Richard

Fliss · #24 06-20-2009, 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by devellis

...But when you get into curved tops and backs, it's tough to turn out a good instrument cheaply and a lot of low-end instruments of this type care more about looking like a high-end mandolin than playing like one. It's a jungle out there!

This is true to a certain extent, however it's most apparant with scrolls because the time it takes a luthier to create the scroll adds a lot to the cost. You can get a decent carved top Eastman mandolin, for example, for a comparable cost to a Guild GAD series guitar, or a low end Taylor or Martin.

Fliss

devellis · #25 06-21-2009, 08:32 AM

Point well taken, Fliss.

Bltprf502 · #26 06-21-2009, 11:38 AM

I have an Eastman 505. It is hard for my buddy who has a Collingd to play it because they are so close in sound and so far apart in price.

darylcrisp · #27 06-23-2009, 05:45 PM

Folks

Thanks for all those opinions and answers.

Wade and Bob hit the nail on the head about me wanting to spend some good money and get a nicer Mandolin to start with. In my guitar beginnings, i was told to buy a cheap guitar and then figure out what i wanted. Kinda sane advice i guess, but the guitar suggested to me at that time fought me from day one(at that time I knew nothing about a guitar needing to be set up or anything changed. The dealer who sold it to me told me it was a great fingerstyle guitar and thats what i wanted to learn. Now over time, i've saw what that guitar was-it was a monster for me to play since the action was setup for a bluegrass style of picking. I've long since learned this dealer only prefers that kind of music and expects all his guitars to go out the door that way.) If it had not been for me to accidently find a really good Maton, and then Taylors, I may have not progressed much at all with a guitar-and possible would have quit.

As in other endeavors, I've learned that good basic equipment that fits one very good, helps to quickly advance ones skills, and makes the journey more fun and enjoyable.

The Gibson i found at the shop a while back just blew everything away immediately. Even not knowing anything about it(Lori knew how to finger a few chords and played those), you could just tell it sounded really much nicer and felt really fun to handle. I now know it was an A style. It was a bottom end Gibson at around 2 grand, but way ahead of everything else in that shop for half its price.

I'm in no rush and plan to go back and forth and try a couple different ones out, but a couple of other thoughts are these. The shop where the Gibson is at,is a really good shop. I know the folks who run it, they keep a nice kept shop, the items are always in tune, good strings, they give me good breaks in price due to being a frequent customer, and they have long term in-house layaway. All that goes a long way to helping a customer.

Thanks again to everyone, i've got a lot of information to learn from now and some excellent viewpoints of where to start. My father-in-law dropped Lori and I off a mandolin to try out after seeing this post. I haven't had the time to even open the case, but that sounds like a lot of fun this weekend. So time will tell, but the Gibson stole the show for me(and Lori).

Jim(my father-in-law),if you see this, I need to talk to you about helping me weld on my utility trailor one day soon, had a small mishap and need your skills.

thanks to all
Daryl

darylcrisp · #28 06-23-2009, 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lofapco

Can't help much as I am not a mandolin player, but I just saw this thread at the Gibson forum. A group of folks from the forum are visiting Bozeman currently for the "Gibson Homecoming" event. Yesterday they visited the Webber Mandolin factory and have a bunch of nice photos of the place and more than a few nice looking mando's being built. There is a photo of a killer "Bubble Maple" backed model that gives me Mando gas just looking at it!

Just a hint.. for some reason on the Gibson forum you have to refresh once or more times to view the photos full size!

http://forums.gibson.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=21430

Paul

thanks so much for those pictures-i love looking at stuff like that.
just now getting time to check all the replies out.

thanks again for sharing this
daryl

Bill Pillmore · #29 06-24-2009, 01:51 PM

If you are coming from a guitar it might be wise to get the widest nut you can find to make the fingering easier. I think you can find them up to 1 3/16".

darylcrisp · #30 06-24-2009, 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Pillmore

If you are coming from a guitar it might be wise to get the widest nut you can find to make the fingering easier. I think you can find them up to 1 3/16".

Bill

thanks for that note. I have noticed some brands offering and advising this. I notice Breedlove and I think it was Webber, seem to offer this width in a lot of models.

Definitely another major thing to consider.

thanks
dkc