Language learning

[The Watchman]

I think you have to decide what your goal is: fluency in written and spoken language, or conversational and travel language. I've taken adult education classes, private lessons, and online classes, in multiple languages, usually before a trip.

I liked the Pimsleur sets of CDs that i could listen to in my car (when they still had CD players). I did daily Duolingo lessons for a few months during early COVID lockdown. Both were helpful.

[frankmcr]

The thing with French is, it has a number of sounds that are, in my experience, difficult for people who didn't grow up speaking French to get right.

Italian & Spanish don't have that problem, except maybe the Spanish rr but that's about it.

[ewalling]

I have worked in the field of composition and language teaching all my working life. In the business, second-language acquisition has always been marketed as just another course subject whereby the student does level one before moving to level two, then three, and so on. After the sixth level in college, they are ready for mainstream college classes.

Except that they invariably are not. Language competence seems resolutely resistant to the 'hours-put in' model. Once a person enters adulthood, second language competence is wildly unpredictable. Some people remain stuck at a certain level seemingly no matter what they do. Others might suddenly jump to the next level unexpectedly.

Of course, this unpredictability is not good for business, and colleges peddle the notion that you do a course, pass to the next level, pass that, move to the next. One result is that teachers who just want a quiet life (there is intense but unspoken college pressure to encourage this approach) will often just pass students on so that a mainstream subject teacher might find someone in the class who really can't cope. In other instances, the student gets stopped at some point and experiences inconvenience, frustration and expense at not being able to continue with the coin-in-a-slot 'educational' progression from one level to the next.

The upshot is that language learning is a skill that is processed very differently according to the person who does it, even when the person actually lives in the country where the target language is spoken.

[AX17609]

Originally Posted by ewalling

I have worked in the field of composition and language teaching all my working life. In the business, second-language acquisition has always been marketed as just another course subject whereby the student does level one before moving to level two, then three, and so on. After the sixth level in college, they are ready for mainstream college classes.

Except that they invariably are not. Language competence seems resolutely resistant to the 'hours-put in' model. Once a person enters adulthood, second language competence is wildly unpredictable. Some people remain stuck at a certain level seemingly no matter what they do. Others might suddenly jump to the next level unexpectedly.

Of course, this unpredictability is not good for business, and colleges peddle the notion that you do a course, pass to the next level, pass that, move to the next. One result is that teachers who just want a quiet life (there is intense but unspoken college pressure to encourage this approach) will often just pass students on so that a mainstream subject teacher might find someone in the class who really can't cope. In other instances, the student gets stopped at some point and experiences inconvenience, frustration and expense at not being able to continue with the coin-in-a-slot 'educational' progression from one level to the next.

The upshot is that language learning is a skill that is processed very differently according to the person who does it, even when the person actually lives in the country where the target language is spoken.

Excellent! An actual expert...thank you!. Do have any thoughts on the various leaning models -- i.e., the "input" approach, the "output" approach, and the "skill building" approach?

[ewalling]

Originally Posted by AX17609

Excellent! An actual expert...thank you!. Do have any thoughts on the various leaning models -- i.e., the "input" approach, the "output" approach, and the "skill building" approach?

The consensus seems to be that successful learners, either consciously or unconsciously, typically employ strategies from different approaches. They may one moment act like an analytical language detective when confronted by a new grammatical or lexical structure and then adopt a more flexible communicative approach when in a social situation. There have been a range of studies conducted to identify what successful learners do that unsuccessful ones do not. As far as I can remember, their findings suggested that the successful ones adopted this kind of multi-strategy approach. Many were also better able to manage their feelings and self-perceptions as learners and to set realistic goals for themselves.

From personal experience as a learner of Spanish, I lived in Spain from 1982-5 and then again from 1987-90. I had also studied what was called 'A-level Spanish' (advanced level, mainly grammar, reading and writing) at school up to the age of 18.When I first went to live in Spain, I found the speed, accents, and idiomatic language of real native speakers a challenge.

In fact, I sometimes think my breakthrough happened when I lived in Segovia between 87-90. I had a Spanish girlfriend with whom I mostly lived, and my social life was mainly with her friends. I remember one Monday morning going to work and my boss speaking to me in English. For one moment, I had to adjust in my mind to English - I remember thinking this was an achievement: I was finally thinking in Spanish! But that took years.

[Gitfiddlemann]

Originally Posted by ewalling

In fact, I sometimes think my breakthrough happened when I lived in Segovia between 87-90. I had a Spanish girlfriend with whom I mostly lived, and my social life was mainly with her friends. I remember one Monday morning going to work and my boss speaking to me in English. For one moment, I had to adjust in my mind to English - I remember thinking this was an achievement: I was finally thinking in Spanish! But that took years.

I had a very similar experience early in my working career in Germany. I remember getting a call from a customer and being able to successfully resolve his problem on the phone, without mentally drawing on any other language as I was speaking. It was only a short moment after I hung up that I realized it was a definite breakthrough moment.
That was key too from a self-confidence point of view, which is huge if you are learning a new language and wish to speak it.

[ewalling]

Originally Posted by AndreF

I had a very similar experience early in my working career in Germany. I remember getting a call from a customer and being able to successfully resolve his problem on the phone, without mentally drawing on any other language as I was speaking. It was only a short moment after I hung up that I realized it was a definite breakthrough moment.
That was key too from a self-confidence point of view, which is huge if you are learning a new language and wish to speak it.

It's a great feeling, isn't it? But I remember at school with French the teacher telling us we had to 'think in French,' and I also remember wondering how on earth one did that. Think in French - sure I wanted to do that, but it seemed a bit like saying 'be better at simultaneous equations'! From my experience anyway, thinking in a language happens to us rather than we happening to it.

[Gitfiddlemann]

Originally Posted by ewalling

It's a great feeling, isn't it?

Most definitely, in a rewarding kind of way.

Originally Posted by ewalling

From my experience anyway, thinking in a language happens to us rather than we happening to it.

Well said. And it's subtle. And getting there, as I think you mentioned as well, may require different paths depending on the individual and their own circumstances, as well as their innate ability to process and use the acquired knowledge successfully.

[Silly Moustache]

When I was 14, I had to travel from London with my parents down to Genoble in France to see my sister married.
My parents had no language skills and I ghad had one term of Frecnh (like an hour a week!)
I took a lilttle Collins dictionary, and struggled but mostlt my attempts worked apart from having 1st class train tickets but travelling from Paris to Lyon in third class (virtually cattle trucks then).

We got to Grenoble, and thence to Lausanne (my sister was working in a travelling Ice show) and then home.

By the time we got home, I realised that I was thinking in French!

When we used to holiday in Greece, ('80s and '90s) the Greeks often mistook me for a Germasn, so i developed ways of saying the I was English in German, and then they;d often carry on the conversation in German. After two weeks i was thinking in German again (although my grammer and sentence contruction was terrible).

Having spent time in Denmark and Sweden in the '70s I find I confuse them bother with German some times.

[Joe Beamish]

Originally Posted by AX17609

Excellent! An actual expert...thank you!. Do have any thoughts on the various leaning models -- i.e., the "input" approach, the "output" approach, and the "skill building" approach?

Second language acquisition is a complicated area consisting of many disciplines and fields of inquiry. There are many hypotheses about how it works, and how well it works under what conditions.

I’m not sure that being an “expert” portends much in itself insofar as determining the “best” way to learn, but I do agree with the general observation that different people learn differently with various degrees of success.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theo...ge_acquisition

[Joe Beamish]

Originally Posted by frankmcr

The thing with French is, it has a number of sounds that are, in my experience, difficult for people who didn't grow up speaking French to get right.

Italian & Spanish don't have that problem, except maybe the Spanish rr but that's about it.

Isn’t getting a sound “right” a relative idea? I’m not sure what difference this makes in becoming proficient in the language.

Most native French speakers can’t get the “th” sound (theater, etc.) right, but many can speak English proficiently or fluently nonetheless.

[The Watchman]

I like the Benny Hill approach to speaking German. He said "say it in English with your most outrageous fake German accent, and you'll be pretty close."

He actually spoke fluent French,

[AX17609]

Originally Posted by Joe Beamish

Second language acquisition is a complicated area consisting of many disciplines and fields of inquiry. There are many hypotheses about how it works, and how well it works under what conditions.

I’m not sure that being an “expert” portends much in itself insofar as determining the “best” way to learn, but I do agree with the general observation that different people learn differently with various degrees of success.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theo...ge_acquisition

Many thanks for this reference. I thought I had rounded up all the Wiki content on this topic, but clearly I had not.

[Joe Beamish]

Originally Posted by The Watchman

I like the Benny Hill approach to speaking German. He said "say it in English with your most outrageous fake German accent, and you'll be pretty close."

He actually spoke fluent French,

Listening to a native French speaker speak in English can indeed give you a good sense of what their accent is like, and is useful to practice imitating.