Here's a roach in everyone's wine glass!

[Italuke]

So of course internet forums like these exist purely for the purpose of folks like us wasting time on esoteric discussions no normal person would ever think of. So here goes: DRY is better! Humidification is for sissies!

Why are OLD guitars highly prized for their AMAZING decades-opened heavenly sound? Because most of them were ABUSED for decades! Example, I never even SAW a guitar humidifier until the early 1980s. Maybe they were around, but even then I only saw my classical guitar compatriots using them. Folk (steel string) guitar folks? Huh? What’s that thing? That ain’t a new-fangled capo is it?

And then there were the cases guitars were stored in, IF they were stored in a case at all! Modern, fancy, air-tight, with built in hygrometers, etc. right? No way. At least not for instruments owned by the vast majority of regular folks. So for decades, 1930s through at least the 60s and into the 70s, no one (well, MOSTLY no one) cared about controlling humidity. And anecdotally, for myself, after living in Phoenix for decades, I swear the reason my wife’s 96 Guild DV52 sounds HEAVENLY now is because she abused it, and never really humidified it at all. Nor was our house humidified. So, thus my theory on wonderful sounding old guitars: they are DRY, not wet.

Ok, have at it!

[L20A]

Not a lot of the old guitars survived life without humidity.
Many were thrown away as they imploded.
Most of the others required major restoration.
A few made it out almost unharmed.

If these old guitars had been cared for like many of us do with our guitars now, a lot more of them would still be around, and in much better condition.

A lot of the old guitars that have survived were from the South where they were naturally humidified.

I'm a believer that drier is better that wet when it comes to guitars but they need to be protected and kept at constant humidity levels to hold up as well as possible.
I keep my guitars at as close to 30% humidity as I can here in Utah, the second driest State in America.

My 1982 Martin D-35 has done very well in this environment.
Bought it new in 1983.

[edward993]

Well I absolutely agree with you that a guitar that is more dry sounds better than one that is more "wet." But a guitar with a crack sounds worse than one without! So there is a point where "dry" becomes physically detrimental to the guitar.

That said, anyone ever dream of some top-vibrating-machine to improve their guitar's tone way back when? Hahaha, that one still gets me, LOL!!!!

Edward

[Black Squirrel]

Old Guilds are so overbuilt you could not crack them with a hammer.

[zmf]

Originally Posted by Italuke

Why are OLD guitars highly prized for their AMAZING decades-opened heavenly sound? Because most of them were ABUSED for decades! Example, I never even SAW a guitar humidifier until the early 1980s.

An epiphany! Gotta love 'em. Sometimes they last as long as week.

[fireyrooster]

Originally Posted by L20A

Not a lot of the old guitars survived life without humidity.
Many were thrown away as they imploded.
Most of the others required major restoration.
A few made it out almost unharmed.

Only the strongest survived; we need to analyze their genetics so we can create a species of Super Guitar, able to withstand the highest levels of abuse...lol

[Robin, Wales]

Just spent an hour or more reading the abstracts from various academic papers on this and, basically, old wood that has been through many cycles of moisture gain and loss is less hygroscopic than younger wood.

And something made of wood will be most stable if it lives in an RH environment the same as when it was made. This is more important in younger woods.

Kiln drying, whilst good at removing excess moisture, does not change the hygroscopicity of the wood as well as longer term air drying and seasoning (cycling through RH changes).

So, your old guitar that has naturally been through seasons will have a different wood structure that is slightly less hygroscopic and slightly more stable than a guitar that was a tree 12 months ago.

Wood movement is not linear when exposed to %RH. There is less movement (a flatter line on the graph) between 35%RH and 65%RH than below or above those figures (much steeper lines on the graph).

My take on this is if you buy a new guitar, built from kiln dried wood that was a tree not too long ago, and made in a 45% RH controlled factory then keep it around that 45% RH for the early years of its life. But it is probably best, for long term stability and "ageing" to let it seasonally cycle a little.

Old guitars, that have been abused for decades, were likely made with naturally seasoned wood, in factories that were not humidity controlled. So, if you bought one made in the winter, when the factory air was dry, and you lived in a dry climate, then all would be well. Over time, that guitar would probably be OK in a more humid climate too because age had made it slightly less hygroscopic.

Phew, isn't Google and toothache keeping you awake a wonderful combination!

Edit: I did read in one paper that sound vibrations travel faster through aged woods, and there was an effect on sound reflectivity too, but I can't remember the details.

[turtlejimmy]

Originally Posted by edward993

That said, anyone ever dream of some top-vibrating-machine to improve their guitar's tone way back when? Hahaha, that one still gets me, LOL!!!!

Edward

I knew someone who used to regularly park his acoustic on a stand in front of one of the big speakers at his house, where music blared all day long. The bass coming out of the speaker would get the strings moving and he thought it would improve the guitar's tone faster. I thought he was, just sort of in general, but here in particular, completely out of his mind.

And, Btw, I think my roach is drunk.



Turtle

[Steve DeRosa]

A few observations:

Violin-family instruments routinely have a lifespan measured in centuries - no central heating/cooling, no hygrometers/humidifiers, no specialized protection other than a case for the first couple hundred years of their lives...

The earliest instrument in my present collection dates to ca. 1875, and I've owned examples from the '20s, '30s, '40s, '50s - no fret sprout, no twisted necks, no real temperature/humidity-related issues other than a couple sealed cracks in the 150-year-old piece, but that's about it...

Abuse - hardly the answer; it's not mojo, it's damage plain and simple - I've seen 200+ year-old orchestral strings in better tonal/structural/cosmetic shape than many big-name American flattops one-tenth their age, as are IME prewar/early-postwar acoustic archtops (considered the virtuoso instruments of their day)...

For those who may not be aware instruments can be played well and often enough to develop their tone, without looking like they've been through a nuclear holocaust - jazz and classical players do it all the time, and I was taught from day one that an instrument should be treated with the same respect you'd give your S.O. ...

The secret: properly-seasoned, aged, air-dried woods - no need to rehash Robin's excellent scientific explanation - and some collective attitude adjustment in the players' community...

As a whole the old stuff survived much harsher conditions than anything a modern instrument is likely to face, and over a longer period of time, without incurring the kinds of issues (or requiring the kind of pampering) that have become routine even with some high-dollar boutique items - but until/unless we demand better "we do because we can - and you'll buy it anyway" will continue to be the order of the day...

[turtlejimmy]

I know someone who has a 250 year old violin, from a famous Polish violin maker, that survived all that time in great shape and plays really well. It probably had a few replacement bits over the centuries.



Turtle

[fireyrooster]

I can't find the video, but there was a ukulele luthier who built a device that would strum a freshly-built uke. He would put it in for a million strums before selling the instrument. Can't remember the name of the guy, but I'll keep looking for the video.

[Honkycat]

Originally Posted by turtlejimmy

I knew someone who used to regularly park his acoustic on a stand in front of one of the big speakers at his house, where music blared all day long. The bass coming out of the speaker would get the strings moving and he thought it would improve the guitar's tone faster. I thought he was, just sort of in general, but here in particular, completely out of his mind.

And, Btw, I think my roach is drunk.



Turtle

Might this person have had a silly moustache?

[Italuke]

Originally Posted by Black Squirrel

Old Guilds are so overbuilt you could not crack them with a hammer.

Lol! True but in my example the "V" series are the most lightly built ever east coast Guilds.

[davidbeinct]

Re abuse of steel string flattops compared to jazz and classical instruments-there’s probably something about playing behind chicken wire at a honky tonk or roadhouse that gets rid of the kid gloves attitude, if it ever existed. Of course most of us will never play in an environment like that, but that environment is baked into the culture of the steel string guitar. They are used to play the devil’s music, after all. At least that’s my opinion about why what a classical musician would clearly categorize as abuse becomes “mojo” in our world.
I am really careful with my own guitars, but then again I was already told I can’t build a chicken wire enclosure in my music room.

[383roller]

Wait…. So it’s not the top, bracing, materials, era, tap tone, thickness, truss type, bridge placement, fret wire, nut/bone/bridge pin material, saddle height, tuner mass, tone wood that makes a guitar sound great?
I’m confused.

No, Really, I have guitars with history on both sides of the spectrum. Abused: like decades in a barn abuse. Cared for: kept cased in coastal areas for 50 years or more. Although the dryness is a real thing and I tend to like that side better they both can sound good, although when I leave a guitar out and it’s been raining for days it does sound horrible.

My favorite part of this discussion is the observation on the discussions