Nut slots. To angle or not?

[donnyb]

Been discussing with a friend the fors and againsts of angling the nut slots towards the machine tuners positions, when making a new nut from a blank.

I dont mean the break angle.

Is there a benefit in keeping the slots at right angles to the nut (as "normal" if bought pre-slotted) or is it better to tailor make the slots to provide varying exit angles?
I can see that string wear characteristics to the nut faces could be different and maybe not in a good way.

[Rudy4]

It's better from a mechanical perspective, but the slight amount you gain in function won't offset the fact that most people will think it looks unprofessional.

[Mandobart]

Though at first blush it makes sense, remember all the strings run nearly perpendicular to the nut as they head south from the nut toward the frets. So an angled nut slot will just move the point where the string turns toward the tuning machine from the back of the nut to the front.

What does that gain?

[redir]

Who thinks it looks unprofessional? I have never heard that in all the years I have been doing this. Seems to make sense to me to do what the string wants to do which is point in the direction of the tuner post. I would agree though that the benefit of doing so, if any really, is minimal at best. I just think it looks cool.

[Howard Klepper]

I always angle the slots so they point as close as I can get to the inside edge of tuner post. There is an advantage in how well the guitar tunes, because cutting square to the nut creates an angle for the string to go around at the top of the nut. One break angle at the bottom (fretboard side) of the nut is all it takes. I can't imagine how anyone would consider it more professional to make a guitar harder to tune.

[Rudy4]

Originally Posted by redir

Who thinks it looks unprofessional? I have never heard that in all the years I have been doing this. Seems to make sense to me to do what the string wants to do which is point in the direction of the tuner post. I would agree though that the benefit of doing so, if any really, is minimal at best. I just think it looks cool.

People that buy guitars? Most of the major companies who produce guitars?

I totally agree with the premise that it's a better way to implement a design, but it has such a minimal effect on performance that it isn't worth the effort.

I've cut over 100 brass nuts for lap steels, dozens of banjo nuts, and quite a few guitar and mandolin family nuts, many using the "angle to the string post" cut.

The simple truth is it is more of a talking point than anything that really matters and I HAVE entertained the question "Why are the nut slots crooked?".

If you need proof of concept about its importance just go to any retailer that carries the top brands and see how the nuts are cut. That's good enough for me.

If the major manufacturers thought it was anything that mattered they would all jump on the bandwagon and tout it as an advantage over their competitors.

I DO think it's a good idea, but not worth raising the question from customers. (If you have customers who don't look closely at your work then you must live in a part of the country that doesn't care about such things.)

Another point that could be a bone of contention for players is the very real possibility of the distance for string centers being effected enough to actually feel. This isn't going to be an issue with folks who know enough about instruments to understand that the string can ramp away from the slot at the front contact point of the nut. If you have that occur on the D and G strings the string spacing can be noticeably wider unless you push the strings toward each other. Anyone who doesn't understand this should simply go the Frets.com and look at the instructions for cutting nut slots. Frank Ford makes a note that the string should be pushed down in front of the nut to eliminate the slight bow of the string as it leaves the contact point.

Why do I bring this up? Simply to point out that things that often look like "perfect solutions" sometimes aren't. I ain't making this up, folks!

[Rudy4]

Originally Posted by Howard Klepper

I always angle the slots so they point as close as I can get to the inside edge of tuner post. There is an advantage in how well the guitar tunes, because cutting square to the nut creates a sharp angle for the string to go around at the top of the nut. One break angle at the bottom (fretboard side) of the nut is all it takes. I can't imagine how anyone would consider it more professional to make a guitar harder to tune.

I've never seen anyone make a nut that doesn't angle down toward the slope angle of the peg head AND relieve the back edge of the string slots. No sharp edges necessary if you do the job correctly.

[Howard Klepper]

Originally Posted by Rudy4

I've never seen anyone make a nut that doesn't angle down toward the slope angle of the peg head AND relieve the back edge of the string slots. No sharp edges necessary if you do the job correctly.

I've shown guitars in a lot of places and no one ever commented on the nut slots being angled. I think it looks much better than a slot that gets wider toward the headstock as seen straight on (if that's what you are describing). Actually, I can't recall seeing a nut slot cut by any maker that does that. Funny that our experiences differ so much. But whatever works for you.

[Rudy4]

Originally Posted by Howard Klepper

I've shown guitars in a lot of places and no one ever commented on the nut slots being angled. I think it looks much better than a slot that gets wider toward the headstock as seen straight on (if that's what you are describing). Actually, I can't recall seeing a nut slot cut by any maker that does that. Funny that our experiences differ so much. But whatever works for you.

I wondered if I might be mis-remembering what I'd observed, so I checked several examples of the close up views of the nuts from several manufacturers on the Sweetwater website. I could not find an example of slots that were obviously angled.

I WANTED to prove myself wrong, but that's just part of the process of looking for proof and not finding it.

As is said, "The truth is out there...". I'm positive if I looked long enough I could find angled slots.

[redir]

I've seen nuts that are rounded from the back up to the slots to where it's almost as thick as a typical saddle would be, about 1/8th in or so. When done like that the strings point right to the tuner posts. The slots are cut straight but the length of the slot is so short they just kind of turn in that direction and go.

[Howard Klepper]

Originally Posted by Rudy4

I wondered if I might be mis-remembering what I'd observed, so I checked several examples of the close up views of the nuts from several manufacturers on the Sweetwater website. I could not find an example of slots that were obviously angled.

I WANTED to prove myself wrong, but that's just part of the process of looking for proof and not finding it.

As is said, "The truth is out there...". I'm positive if I looked long enough I could find angled slots.

No one is denying what the factories do. The issue (or so I thought) is what is best to do.

[Mandobart]

Originally Posted by Howard Klepper

No one is denying what the factories do. The issue (or so I thought) is what is best to do.

So are we convinced that the factories and custom builders have all been wrong all this time, and there's only a handful of us who really know the truth? They're ignorantly or purposefully doing it wrong because.....?

There's some kind of conspiracy?

[Lefty MacGuffin]

I have 3 Martins, a 59 0-18, a 73 D-35, and a 06 D-41. All have noticeable slant to the d and g strings. I measured about .035” difference in the string spacing between the fretboard and face plate sides of the nut.

[donnyb]

Yikes !! OP here. I've a started something more than I intended.
Background to my thinking was .... we angle the strings down fort break angle tone improvement, does angling the strings 'sideways' to the posts make any acoustic difference ?

I assumed the answer would have to be based on decades of experience backed by some science.

[Howard Klepper]

I won't waste more time on the point (especially since Mandobart has chosen to turn the thread away from serious discussion), but nuts are slotted as I describe on guitars by numerous good and well-known builders ranging from factory to individual. That includes CF Martin (before they were machine cut), Santa Cruz (before they were machine cut), Dana Bourgeois, Michael Bashkin, John Arnold and many others. I am surprised Rudy couldn't find them. I'd post photos, but I no longer use photo hosting. Cheers.