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Old 01-04-2020, 07:21 AM
T268 T268 is offline
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Default Improv question

So after a long time of not taking time to understand what I was playing, I’m trying to rectify this glaring discrepancy. My lovely wife got me a looper pedal for me to jam along with...me.

Question 1: am I correct that if I was to simply play a chord, let’s say C, it would sound alright to play through a scale (let’s say the minor pentatonic) provided I always come back to the root note of the chord(C)?

Question 2: if my assumption about Question 1 is correct, if I were to play a chord progression (let’s say C, G, D-key of G), would I select notes for improvisation based on the chord being played at that time(play notes in a given scale for D when a D is being strummed, scale of C when C is strummed, etc)? Or do I simply play through a selected scale of the note that is the basis for the key(in this case G)?

Thanks in advance AGF.
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Old 01-04-2020, 07:36 AM
Bikewer Bikewer is offline
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I recall listening to a guitarist who had reportedly just graduated from a prominent music school... He was playing with the university jazz band here where I work.
That’s what he was doing...Playing scalar notes for every chord change.

As a result....He sounded like he was playing exercises. Not very interesting.

The goal (IMO...) is to play musical lines which may used notes extracted from the particular scale.... Or not.
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Old 01-04-2020, 07:44 AM
varmonter varmonter is offline
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The glory of a looper is that you
can do it either way and discover
what works for you. I use them all
the time to practice leads. Its a great
learning tool.And gives you practice
when you do it live.
I for one play the whole progression
G,C,D. for key of g for instance.
and then noodle around that.
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Old 01-04-2020, 08:34 AM
JBCROTTY JBCROTTY is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T268 View Post
Question 1: am I correct that if I was to simply play a chord, let’s say C, it would sound alright to play through a scale (let’s say the minor pentatonic) provided I always come back to the root note of the chord(C)?

Question 2: if my assumption about Question 1 is correct, if I were to play a chord progression (let’s say C, G, D-key of G), would I select notes for improvisation based on the chord being played at that time(play notes in a given scale for D when a D is being strummed, scale of C when C is strummed, etc)? Or do I simply play through a selected scale of the note that is the basis for the key(in this case G)?
I'm no expert - but I'll provide my understanding and how I think about it.

Your first question: I don't think it matters that you return to the root note. The key is to stay within the scale or to use notes from other scales that work in the key you are playing. I cannot, on the fly, determine every note that works with a particular key, so I am forced to stay in the scales that work for that particular key. I just try to vary the note progression so it does not sound like I am running through the scale.

Second question: It is my understanding that you can play any note within the scales that work for the key you are in. For instance, the D and C scale may both work for a particular key (others can verify this, this is just what I understand) so you are not restricted to particular notes, just to particular scales. Any note within the correct scales will work for a particular key.

This is how I interpreted things as I dove into understanding how this all works, but I am not an expert so others can provide more insights.

The good thing is that when you hit a wrong note you know it - your ear knows immediately when something is out of key regardless of what your musical capability or knowledge is. The downside is my soloing capability sounds like a 3 year old hammering away on a toy xylophone.
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Old 01-04-2020, 09:48 AM
Wengr Wengr is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T268 View Post
So after a long time of not taking time to understand what I was playing, I’m trying to rectify this glaring discrepancy. My lovely wife got me a looper pedal for me to jam along with...me.

Question 1: am I correct that if I was to simply play a chord, let’s say C, it would sound alright to play through a scale (let’s say the minor pentatonic) provided I always come back to the root note of the chord(C)?

Question 2: if my assumption about Question 1 is correct, if I were to play a chord progression (let’s say C, G, D-key of G), would I select notes for improvisation based on the chord being played at that time(play notes in a given scale for D when a D is being strummed, scale of C when C is strummed, etc)? Or do I simply play through a selected scale of the note that is the basis for the key(in this case G)?

Thanks in advance AGF.
Hello. The chord C indicates C major. You can play C minor pentatonic over it, and that's very common, but be aware that the C minor pentatonic contains a flat 3rd (Eb). That will clash with the natural third of the C major chord, so try bending that Eb note.

As to question 2 I would say play modally right from the start.

In the key of G major, the C and D major chords can and will be used because those triads are present in the G major scale. You are not constantly changing key, so stick to the G major scale notes, but when the progression is on C, play phrases (from the G scale)that tend to start and or end on C, and when the progression is on D, play phases(again from the G scale) that tend to start and end on D.

And above all, have fun.
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Old 01-04-2020, 10:23 AM
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Mr. Jelly Mr. Jelly is offline
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I'm going to try and respond for someone starting out and learning. When playing the G chord changes and using the G minor pentatonic scale a learning person's ear will want it all sound like it makes sense. So as they play along with the chord changes they will find that the tonal center of what they are playing centers around the root note of the chord being played at the time. Which are in the G minor pentatonic scale. It works the same with the G major pentatonic scale also. It's a natural draw that happens. Music is about tension resolution and that leads the ear to the root. The phrasing or accents that you use are what makes it musical. Think of speaking or singing as you play. Terms like "I like you" or "Where are we going" bring you back to the root.
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Old 01-04-2020, 10:38 AM
Sax Player Guy Sax Player Guy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T268 View Post
Question 1: am I correct that if I was to simply play a chord, let’s say C, it would sound alright to play through a scale (let’s say the minor pentatonic) provided I always come back to the root note of the chord(C)?
Which minor pentatonic do you mean? Which C chord do you mean? If you mean C minor pentatonic, then you will have an Eb which may or may not sound good against the E in a C Major chord (C-E-G). An Eb can sound good against that E in a C chord if you are thinking, for example, of a C7#9 (the chord you hear in Purple Haze and countless Blues and Rock songs), because then it is a chord tone-- the sharp ninth.

You will also have an F (sometimes called the "avoid" note, or the "handle with care" note) which would not sound so great if you weakly linger on it because it sounds like it wants to resolve down to the E.

You will also have a Bb which would sound suspect against a C Major 7 chord.

However, if you meant, say, A minor pentatonic, then you would have the notes A-C-D-E-G, which all sound pretty friendly on a C Major chord.

Quote:
Originally Posted by T268 View Post
Question 2: if my assumption about Question 1 is correct, if I were to play a chord progression (let’s say C, G, D-key of G), would I select notes for improvisation based on the chord being played at that time(play notes in a given scale for D when a D is being strummed, scale of C when C is strummed, etc)? Or do I simply play through a selected scale of the note that is the basis for the key(in this case G)?

Thanks in advance AGF.
Playing the notes that go with each chord of the moment is a good thing. It's what is called "making the changes", and is satisfying to the ear. Simply playing The C Major scale musically over, say, a C-F-G (I-IV-V) chord progression is what's called harmonic generalization, and it can also be a good thing.

What I personally find most satisfying is when players play melodically. If you just go up and down the scales (in steps or thirds or whatever) of each chord of the moment all the time, it does tend to sound like you're playing exercises. This sort of vertical playing can truly get tiresome. But so can harmonic generalization-- especially camping out on one minor pentatonic for the entire chord progression.

My suggestions (BTW it's cool that you have a looper, you are going to have a lot of fun):

1. Play s-l-o-w-l-y for a good while. For example, if you are playing over a looped C Major chord (hopefully with a nice rhythmic groove happening), play the C Major scale in whole notes, or even slower, and really pay attention to how each note sounds against the chord. You will notice that some notes sound better to you than others, and that different notes of the scale produce a different feeling. You'll eventually figure out what notes you like to use for the kind of feeling you want to convey.

2. When playing over a progression, start working on connecting the chords with your melodic lines. By this I mean that when the chord changes, see if you can avoid simply jumping to the root of the new chord (not that that's inherently a wrong thing to do-- it isn't), but instead go to the nearest note in the new chord scale. This sounds especially good if the nearest note of the new chord happens to be the third or seventh (the guide tones) of the chord.

Ultimately you will find that literally any note can sound good on any chord once you learn several ways to handle them. For now, though, just go slowly and listen hard to how the various notes sound with the various chords. It's a beautiful journey. Enjoy the trip!

Disclaimer: I haven't had my coffee yet this morning, so I might have made an error or three in the above. I'll try to come back later and check it for accuracy.
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Old 01-04-2020, 11:23 AM
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Playing it safe just stick the notes of the key you are in. However that is limited, even more limited when sticking to the pentatonic. OK when limited fill-ins but for more variety you can use non key chromatic notes (maybe your doing a melody line or playing over some substitution chords.
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Old 01-04-2020, 12:05 PM
JonPR JonPR is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T268 View Post
So after a long time of not taking time to understand what I was playing, I’m trying to rectify this glaring discrepancy. My lovely wife got me a looper pedal for me to jam along with...me.

Question 1: am I correct that if I was to simply play a chord, let’s say C, it would sound alright to play through a scale (let’s say the minor pentatonic) provided I always come back to the root note of the chord(C)?
OK, a few things:
1. Short answer - a qualified yes.
2. C minor pentatonic on a C major chord is a blues sound. That's fine if that's the sound you want!
3. No need to play the scale in any particular order, nor to start or end on the root note. But it will probably sound best to end on chord tones. I.e., for any phrase you play, end it on a C, E or G note. (Assuming the chord is C major. If it's C minor, the ending notes would b C, Eb or G.)
4. Obviously this means you need to know where those notes are in your scale pattern! This is clear enough if you pick a scale pattern in a position where you also know a shape for a C chord. Otherwise you should be able to use your ear. Try playing long notes and listen to which ones sound like they fit the chord, like they support it. This is a good ear training exercise anyway, for leanring how to improvise. Every note in the scale has its own sound, and if you focus on each one individually - how it sounds against the chord - then you know how and when to use that note in future.
Quote:
Originally Posted by T268 View Post
Question 2: if my assumption about Question 1 is correct, if I were to play a chord progression (let’s say C, G, D-key of G), would I select notes for improvisation based on the chord being played at that time(play notes in a given scale for D when a D is being strummed, scale of C when C is strummed, etc)? Or do I simply play through a selected scale of the note that is the basis for the key(in this case G)?
Yes - you "select notes for improvisation based on the chord being played at that time".
And your last sentence is correct. You don't change the scale for each chord, not if the chords all come from the same scale (G major in this case).
Any pattern of the scale will do, but the first thing is to know which notes in the scale are the chord tones for each chord. You can still use the other notes, but they will be passing notes: "extensions" or "tensions". So it works as follows, chord by chord:

C chord: chord tones C E G. Passing notes (tensions): D F# A B
G chord: chord tones G B D. Passing notes (tensions): A C E F#
D chord: chord tones D F# A. Passing notes (tensions): E G B C

You can use all those notes at any time. All of them are in every pattern of the scale! Your ear will probably tell you which are "inside" (chord tones) and which are "outside". Tensions are not bad things, they are more expressive than the chord tones - but learning to use them creatively takes a lot of experimentation and listening.
As I say, you obviously need to know where all these notes are! But you don't actually need to know the note name of every fret on every string, because you can work from chord shapes.
But then that in turn means you need to know enough shapes for each chord, to let you play in whatever fret position you choose!
If (a) you don't know the notes on the fretboard, and (b) you only know the open position "cowboy" shapes, then you can (should) only improvise around those chords in open position. That's easy - you can see where the whole scale is because the chord shapes plot it out!
Code:
0  1   2   3   4
E|---|-F#|-G-|---|
B|-C-|---|-D-|---|
G|---|-A-|---|(B)|
D|---|-E-|---|-F#|
A|---|-B-|-C-|---|
E|---|-F#|-G-|---|
That's the open position G major scale. I'm sure you can see all the chord shapes in there. You don't need to know the note names, because you have your fingers on the notes in question whenever you play that chord. So when that chord arrives in the backing, you know the main notes to play. And if you know what chord is coming next, you can also plan lines to land on a note in the next chord.

So the note names are useful, but they are only labels, placeholders. The more chord shapes you know, the less you need to think about note names - the less you need to even think about scales - and the easier and freer the improvisation process is. Chords are your guide, your stepping stones. So know where they are at every point.
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Old 01-04-2020, 12:54 PM
Silly Moustache Silly Moustache is offline
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Hi, i wonder whether these vids might help :





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Old 01-05-2020, 08:27 AM
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Play what sounds good!
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Old 01-05-2020, 08:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T268 View Post
So after a long time of not taking time to understand what I was playing, I’m trying to rectify this glaring discrepancy. My lovely wife got me a looper pedal for me to jam along with...me.

Question 1: am I correct that if I was to simply play a chord, let’s say C, it would sound alright to play through a scale (let’s say the minor pentatonic) provided I always come back to the root note of the chord(C)?

Question 2: if my assumption about Question 1 is correct, if I were to play a chord progression (let’s say C, G, D-key of G), would I select notes for improvisation based on the chord being played at that time(play notes in a given scale for D when a D is being strummed, scale of C when C is strummed, etc)? Or do I simply play through a selected scale of the note that is the basis for the key(in this case G)?

Thanks in advance AGF.
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Old 01-05-2020, 09:11 AM
soma5 soma5 is offline
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To me, improvisation requires two skills that can be worked on independently. The first is "hearing" the notes you want to play in your head. The second is the ability to play the notes that are in your head.

I think you work on the first skill by listening to not only the melody of the song but others whose solos impress you and internalizing aspects of what they play. This includes not only guitars but other instruments like saxophones and horns but also even singers, who will embellish and sometmes even modify a melody. The second is more mechanical, and some people learn this by learning scales, arpeggios, etc. I think that a simple way to work on this is to take songs you know in your sleep and play the melodies in various keys, no modifications or embellishments at first. I've heard of people telling others to start with something like "Happy Birthday" and play it in various keys with no errors. Then move onward and upward.

The second skill can be learned by anyone who puts in the time and effort. The first is a little different in that the best players are also more creative than others, but I believe that anyone who spends time listening will improve his/her skills. It is a journey.
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Old 01-05-2020, 09:42 AM
JonPR JonPR is offline
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Originally Posted by soma5 View Post
To me, improvisation requires two skills that can be worked on independently. The first is "hearing" the notes you want to play in your head. The second is the ability to play the notes that are in your head.

I think you work on the first skill by listening to not only the melody of the song but others whose solos impress you and internalizing aspects of what they play. This includes not only guitars but other instruments like saxophones and horns but also even singers, who will embellish and sometmes even modify a melody. The second is more mechanical, and some people learn this by learning scales, arpeggios, etc. I think that a simple way to work on this is to take songs you know in your sleep and play the melodies in various keys, no modifications or embellishments at first. I've heard of people telling others to start with something like "Happy Birthday" and play it in various keys with no errors. Then move onward and upward.

The second skill can be learned by anyone who puts in the time and effort. The first is a little different in that the best players are also more creative than others, but I believe that anyone who spends time listening will improve his/her skills. It is a journey.
Great post! Agree 100%.
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Old 01-06-2020, 04:12 AM
capefisherman capefisherman is offline
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Totally agree with soma5. Learn melodies!!!!!! There are many advantages to this, the most important being that from the get-go you are predicting what the next note or notes should sound like. This is the first and most vital step in "hearing" lines before you play them. Just riffing scales gets really, really boring to both the listener and the player in a short amount of time. I am speaking from personal experience, having grown up in rock and blues improvising where you did everything possible to NOT play a melody as it sounded very simple and uninteresting - or so we thought. My dad was a world class and quite well known jazz drummer who played with many great improvisers and when I was young and trying to learn to improvise he would often ask: Why don't you play the "head"? That is the melody - how many jazzers begin and/or end a solo, at least partially. The advantage is that to some degree it primes their creativity. It also implants the melody on the mind of the listener so they will have a reference point to what comes next, whether they realize it or not.

What he was trying to do was get me to create something in my mind BEFORE I played it, not just listen to the guitar without having much idea what would be coming next.

This is way tougher to do for most people than just riffing scales. Yes, most improvising is scale and/or arpeggio based and it's pretty easy to get good at basic scales that sound OK with chords that are being played. It's very, very tempting to just play those without thinking about much beyond basic "boxes" or transferable position type playing. But I can always tell - no matter how fast or slick a player might be - when they are only listening to the guitar to make sure the scale is right rather than listening to something in their musical brain and trying to recreate it.

So my advice would be to take a song with a strong melody (many Beatles songs are great for this) and work on learning the melody in a given key. Yes, you will need to know the notes in the key so its worthwhile to spend a bit of time learning the notes in that key. But don't fall into the trap I mentioned above! When you can play the melody, start thinking about how the notes in the melody relate to the chord being played at every moment in time. Are they chord tones, or do they anticipate a chord that is coming next?

Then - the real fun begins! Try singing (even if you don't think you can sing!) little phrases using those notes and then try to play them - not with the looper going, just on their own.

This whole exercise is to push creativity, not just watching your fingers move. Don't worry about positional playing; do those little phrases on just one string if you need to. There are many, many stories about great guitar improvisers learning their craft doing just that!

Then comes phrasing. But that's another whole discussion! Good luck and have fun.
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