"Neo-Tropical Mahogany" In Taylor 517/517e models?

[SpruceTop]

Okay, folks, as a potential Taylor Grand Pacific 517e customer, old SpuceTop is kind of flipping his lid over the following descriptions on the Taylor website for the mahogany back-and-sides of the Grand Pacific 517/517e models!

From the Main Page Features description for the Grand Pacific 517 models:
Back and sides of neo-tropical mahogany flavor the sound with dry, woody character, coupling beautifully with the dynamic response of the torrefied Sitka spruce top.

Then from the "Features" section's link to find out more about Mahogany:
Tropical Mahogany
Origin: Central and South America
Used On: The 500 Series, Acoustic 5 Series, LKSM

So, is Taylor using "Genuine mahogany" or "neo-tropical mahogany" for the back-and-sides of their 500 Series guitars or using a sleight-of-hand to use whatever "mahogany" is available similar to what Martin Guitars has done with "select tonewoods?" Is "neo-tropical mahogany" perhaps another term for Sipo or other mahogany-like tonewood from Africa or does "neo-tropical mahogany" mean it's responsibly harvested from "Genuine Mahogany" newer-growth trees in Central America and South America as opposed to older mahogany trees? Maybe, I'm over-thinking this but I'd like to read your thoughts on this kind of a confusing mixture of descriptions, Thanks!

[D41Fan]

Personally, I would guess it is not "Genuine Mahogany". Given the price Taylor is charging it should be but it is never mentioned so I would assume whatever they can get that is not genuine. I know other manufactures would say built from 12/4 stock and 1 piece neck and then list the latin name, etc. Given what Taylors is doing with ebony, I wouldn't assume anything anymore. Afraid the good ole days are over for getting the best woods available unless you go small boutique. Even the crappy woods Martin is using I wouldn't give a dime for. Only my opinion, don't kill me.

[rmgjsps]

"... flavor the sound with dry, woody character, coupling beautifully with the dynamic response of the torrefied Sitka spruce top."

For a minute there I thought I was reading a review by a Napa Valley wine writer! Is "torrified" a new synonym for "corked?"

[TDavis]

Kind of like Martin using “select hardwood” on their standard production necks the last several years...and saving the “genuine mahogany” for Custom Shop built orders exclusively.

[sdelsolray]

I've noticed over the years that, in large part, guitar makers have no problem with clarifying which species of rosewood they use (or provide enough info to determine the species) but when it comes to mahogany, not so much.

[Jaden]

Originally Posted by D41Fan

Personally, I would guess it is not "Genuine Mahogany". Given the price Taylor is charging it should be but it is never mentioned so I would assume whatever they can get that is not genuine. I know other manufactures would say built from 12/4 stock and 1 piece neck and then list the latin name, etc. Given what Taylors is doing with ebony, I wouldn't assume anything anymore. Afraid the good ole days are over for getting the best woods available unless you go small boutique. Even the crappy woods Martin is using I wouldn't give a dime for. Only my opinion, don't kill me.

Crappy woods? I’m not so sure. Here’s my very limited experience:

Two new 000-15m, both flawless construction and finish & finely set up from the factory.

Strum test: 000-15m (no 1) harsh, brash; fingerpicking: articulate but meets resistance under vigorous pick action.

000-15m no.2: strums with loads of headroom and sparkle with D’Addario nickel bronze lights. Fingerpicks from soft and rich to vigorous full bloom.

Verdict: as per luthier reports, you can build identical guitars to exact specifications but wood per billet varies under acoustic employment.

[Earl49]

Originally Posted by sdelsolray

I've noticed over the years that, in large part, guitar makers have no problem with clarifying which species of rosewood they use (or provide enough info to determine the species) but when it comes to mahogany, not so much.

Since rosewood is a CITES listed material, it is very important to be clear and precise. Mahogany isn't listed - yet - so there is more flexibility. As a factory builder it makes sense to keep your options open, quality and suitability for the build being otherwise equal.

[sdelsolray]

Originally Posted by Earl49

Since rosewood is a CITES listed material, it is very important to be clear and precise. Mahogany isn't listed - yet - so there is more flexibility. As a factory builder it makes sense to keep your options open, quality and suitability for the build being otherwise equal.

Yes, the CITES distinction is an excellent point. However, the behavior I identified (identifying types of rosewood but not types of mahogany) has been going on for a long time...decades.

[D41Fan]

Jaden, in my experience with Martin, I have a custom D41 with Madi. It is sitting in 3 pieces at my Martin repair shop because the top and back has separated and the Martin certified repairman has never seen anything like it. He has had it for 4 months and is arguing with Martin and to what to do. Its like all the glue joints let go. This guitar was over 7K, the Madi was poor grade and all this started happening only 3 months after I got the guitar. It was properly humidified and stored in case. I will swear up and down the wood was not cured properly. We all know Martin does not air dry only kiln. There is no excuse for it and Martin will not even step up to the plate!!!!!!! Over 7 K spent and the repairman has had it longer then me thanks to Martin. And people wonder why I;m p/off at them. I;ve been playing for 40 years and never had a crack or split in any guitar I had.

[frankmcr]

Neotropical
adjective
Of or designating the biogeographic region that includes southern Mexico, Central and South America, and the West Indies.

https://www.yourdictionary.com/neotropical

[SpruceTop]

Originally Posted by frankmcr

Neotropical
adjective
Of or designating the biogeographic region that includes southern Mexico, Central and South America, and the West Indies.

https://www.yourdictionary.com/neotropical

Thanks for putting my mind at ease! Why not just use Genuine Mahogany instead of "neo-tropical?' Now, if some maker could get their hands on some Cuban Mahogany ...

[DukeX]

I don't think Larrivee currently uses true mahogany either (Swietenia).

From the Larrivee website (05 Series and 50 Series): *All mahogany is FSC certified Khaya, commonly know as African mahogany or tropical mahogany.

They don't say that for the 03 Series or the 40 Series, but I doubt they use Swietenia for those either.

[Earl49]

Originally Posted by D41Fan

Jaden, in my experience with Martin, I have a custom D41 with Madi. It is sitting in 3 pieces at my Martin repair shop because the top and back has separated and the Martin certified repairman has never seen anything like it.....

I too had a lot of push back from Martin on a warranty claim. The top on my guitar started separating at about three years despite careful humidity care. None of my other guitars - including other Marin's - had any issues and were treated identically. I put it down to an inadequately seasoned top at the time of the build. Martin never did concede the issue and I paid about $400 in repairs that IMO should have been a warranty claim. They lost a customer for life, and I've since spent many thousands of dollars buying their competitor's guitars.

[Shuksan]

The idea that woods that aren't "genuine" mahogany are crappy is crap. Sapele and Khaya (African mahogany) are both related to mahogany and are excellent alternatives to "genuine" mahogany. Most people wouldn't even be able to tell the difference between Khaya and Honduran mahogany. All that said, I don't like it when manufacturers purposely obscure what wood they are using in their instruments.

"Neo-tropical" is a legitimate term that refers to the tropical regions of the Americas and the temperate regions of South America as a whole. It is distinct from "Afrotropical" which refers to all of Africa south of the Sahara desert. So neotropical mahogany would not include African species related to mahogany such as khaya and sapele, if used properly.

[SpruceTop]

Originally Posted by DukeX

I don't think Larrivee currently uses true mahogany either (Swietenia).

From the Larrivee website (05 Series and 50 Series): *All mahogany is FSC certified Khaya, commonly know as African mahogany or tropical mahogany.

They don't say that for the 03 Series or the 40 Series, but I doubt they use Swietenia for those either.

A week ago, I bought a new Larrivee D-40M that is perhaps the best mahogany dreadnought I've ever owned. Its serial number is about 2000 less than the latest numbers, and it came with the nice, mid-grade, hardshell case, which the newest Larrivees don't come with. I wonder if my new Larrivee D-40M beat a change-over to Khaya "mahogany?" Then, again, if I do have Khaya, players need not have any concern over whether Khaya sounds as good as "Genuine Mahogany."