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  #31  
Old 12-27-2019, 05:36 PM
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Originally Posted by EvanB View Post
KarenB;

I believe that increased production tends to leads to increased flaws which lead to a critical point--upload more staff or lose credibility.
I think that's spot-on. As production grows, the statistical likelihood of something out of spec sneaking out the door increases. Anyone who's followed CF over the years will recognize this phenomenon across multiple makers.

It all comes down to how individual makers deal with those outliers. I don't think any of the popular manufacturers discussed here have anything systemically wrong with their processes. Witness the dozens of happy Emerald and Rainsong (to name but two) owners here.

There's something else interesting going on here too. We've become conditioned to thinking that CF is the answer to all ills in acoustic guitar construction. Sure, it answers lot of the traditional issues around stability of an inherently unstable physical structure, but slight changes in geometry from one sample to another can affect playability to an extraordinary degree.

Over on the wooden side, you'll hear time and time again the need for a pro setup for all sorts of instruments, across the price and quality spectrum. Is it unreasonable for us to expect our CF masterpieces to be perfect out of the box, and able to magically accommodate any playing style - when no-one with half an ounce of experience would expect that from a wooden guitar?
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  #32  
Old 12-27-2019, 05:52 PM
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Originally Posted by EvanB View Post
Oscar;

Since moving into CF guitars I have tended to focus on the problems of CF. I think that wooden guitars carry the issues noted on this forum but also carry contributing issues that make solutions a bit more difficult.: Bowed necks, broken braces, humid or dry conditions, lifted or sunken faces, and so forth.

I tend to think that CF has fewer fault lines and more direct solutions. The path suggested by Tom2, for example, does not have to deal with all those wooden fault lines.
Agreed on all counts. Once a CF is set up properly one should be set for a long time though. I am certainly not losing enthusiasm.
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  #33  
Old 12-27-2019, 07:19 PM
KarenB KarenB is offline
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Quote:
I believe that increased production tends to leadsto increased flaws which lead to a critical point--upload more staff or lose credibility.
Thanks Evan for this insight.
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  #34  
Old 12-28-2019, 01:13 AM
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.......AC;

You are a more deliberative reader than I am--unless I'm doing serious research. What I read on this forum often seems unrelated to me at the time but then later becomes important. So, in the future, when I am trying to remember where I read something, I'll be calling on your file system--thank you. ......
Each of us has a book collection at home. Some large enough to become libraries on their own. But in each case, the books collected are those carefully selected by the individual because they were personally read and appreciated, or, they were purchased to be read later because they are believed to contain value (or were gifts).

But when I walk into another's home and view their collections, at best I 'might' see a small subset that I think I personally have interest in. More likely, none of them will interest me at all. They are 'their' own personal choices, not mine.

My collection of AGF articles is no different. Either I read them and found value, or I partially scanned enough of a thread to think it may be of value in the future. A click of the keyboard later, and it's saved. Over the years, there are hundreds or maybe thousands of pages I've collected.

However, my collection still is not even a hundredth of the articles I've glanced through on AGF, and there are ten times that number that I didn't even bother looking at.

The nature of my own peculiar guitar related interests will likely not match someone else's. It would be no different than visiting a friends large library and leaving disappointed at his choices.

Still, if a need arises, I can certainly take a look at what I have in storage--but keep expectations low.
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  #35  
Old 12-28-2019, 09:11 AM
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AC;

I've followed your contributions to this forum and think you have a marvelous library. My expectations are high, thank you.
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  #36  
Old 12-28-2019, 10:17 AM
JimCA JimCA is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom2 View Post
...

Buzzing is never caused by a nut or saddle being too high, or by too much neck relief.

...
Great post Tom -- worth saving. I disagree about neck relief though. Luthier Bryan Kimsey, http://www.bryankimsey.com, has done measurements of the impact of varying relief on the action at each fret. See his 3 pages on "relief" (not an easy read). He found that the sweet spot for relief that optimizes action across all frets is fairly low (.004" - .008"). While increasing relief on a fixed saddle height will increase action on some frets it will lower action on other frets (possibly causing buzz).
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  #37  
Old 12-28-2019, 05:58 PM
EvanB EvanB is offline
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Uh Oh! Jim is pressing Tom. I can hardly wait to see how this plays out. Here's two smart people contributing to the cutting edge of lutherie. I love it.
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  #38  
Old 12-29-2019, 12:08 AM
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I was actually thinking of editing my original post to address this. I wasn't anticipating the level of interest it generated.

In the extreme, too much neck relief can mess things up as the neck nears the body, and increasing neck relief is not a legitimate substitute for proper saddle height.

I was just giving the OP some suggestions for evaluating his brand new guitar in ways that didn't require taking anything apart or making any permanent changes. The lesson here is never say never.

Personally, I set up my guitars with the relief as close to flat as possible while working on the nut and saddle. This challenges me to be as buzz free as possible. Then my last step is to loosen the truss rod 1/4 turn, and it really is buzz free.

Last edited by Tom2; 12-30-2019 at 02:20 PM.
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  #39  
Old 12-31-2019, 08:28 PM
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Good stuff, thank you.

Went to see a luthier. He called it “character” although he had never seen an Emerald before. I won’t be going back to him.

There’s another one I’ll go see next year.

Meanwhile I’ve been playing it. I think we’re going to be friends.
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Martins:
000-Nylon, All Mahogany custom, 000-15SM, D16-GT (resto mod in progress), D15-M, Stinger SSL electric....
And a Kobza, Bouzouki, Hurdy Gurdy and something medieval looking.....
www.woodenshoe.blog
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  #40  
Old 01-05-2020, 09:08 AM
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I would be curious to hear the other luthier's opinion.

Now that I put a lighter set of strings on my X30 I also experience occasional fret buzz on the lower E and A strings. It is easy to avoid though. Since the guitar has plenty of bass, hitting those string a little less hard is no big deal.
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  #41  
Old 01-05-2020, 01:31 PM
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So I went to see the other luthier.....

The guitar is possessed.

It behaved absolutely perfectly in the store. Both him and me playing it. With or without capo on any fret. Back home it was back to it's old tricks.

I agree with Mountainmaster that playing the lower two strings lighter is an option. But 1: This is not easy, physically as well as mentally for someone who is not an experienced player. (Me). 2: I shouldn't have to be doing this.

What I did pick up on is that it happened to him when he put lighter strings on.... hmmmm. I am not morally opposed to put mediums on there...

Worth a try.
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CF:
Emerald X-30 Royal Ebony, Rainsong H-WS1000N2, Journey OF660
Martins:
000-Nylon, All Mahogany custom, 000-15SM, D16-GT (resto mod in progress), D15-M, Stinger SSL electric....
And a Kobza, Bouzouki, Hurdy Gurdy and something medieval looking.....
www.woodenshoe.blog
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  #42  
Old 01-05-2020, 02:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oscarvan View Post
So I went to see the other luthier.....

The guitar is possessed.

It behaved absolutely perfectly in the store. Both him and me playing it. With or without capo on any fret. Back home it was back to it's old tricks.

I agree with Mountainmaster that playing the lower two strings lighter is an option. But 1: This is not easy, physically as well as mentally for someone who is not an experienced player. (Me). 2: I shouldn't have to be doing this.

What I did pick up on is that it happened to him when he put lighter strings on.... hmmmm. I am not morally opposed to put mediums on there...

Worth a try.
When you played your X-30 at the luthier's shop, did you sit at a different height than when you played it at home? The angle that the guitar strings make with your pick or fingers can vary depending on the height of what you're sitting on when you play. The more the guitar tilts forward or backward in relation to your chest, and the headstock tilts more up-or-down with the floor when you play, can cause the strings to buzz more or less because of the variation the vibrational arc of the strings has in relation to the top of the frets. If everyone played with the neck of the guitar parallel to the floor, and the face of the guitar perpendicular to the floor, and their pick and finger attack across the strings was straight up and down, likely 90% of string buzz would be eliminated with a properly setup guitar. Although most of us don't play in such confined angular restrictions, there is, however, depending on a player's aggressiveness of attack, some leeway in how we can hold a guitar and still get clean chords and notes.
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Last edited by SpruceTop; 01-05-2020 at 02:15 PM.
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  #43  
Old 01-06-2020, 08:50 AM
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That's a really good question. And the answer is that the thing was mainly standing straight up on a small area of the counter top. Guess I'll have to play it that way.... Except first I'm going to do that again when I get home......
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CF:
Emerald X-30 Royal Ebony, Rainsong H-WS1000N2, Journey OF660
Martins:
000-Nylon, All Mahogany custom, 000-15SM, D16-GT (resto mod in progress), D15-M, Stinger SSL electric....
And a Kobza, Bouzouki, Hurdy Gurdy and something medieval looking.....
www.woodenshoe.blog

Last edited by oscarvan; 01-06-2020 at 09:08 AM.
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  #44  
Old 01-06-2020, 04:24 PM
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Nice try, no cigar. I'm gonna try and shoot some video of this, as I need something to send to Donegal. I may just have to strap this thing on and go there.....
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CF:
Emerald X-30 Royal Ebony, Rainsong H-WS1000N2, Journey OF660
Martins:
000-Nylon, All Mahogany custom, 000-15SM, D16-GT (resto mod in progress), D15-M, Stinger SSL electric....
And a Kobza, Bouzouki, Hurdy Gurdy and something medieval looking.....
www.woodenshoe.blog
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  #45  
Old 01-06-2020, 08:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mountainmaster View Post
I would be curious to hear the other luthier's opinion.

Now that I put a lighter set of strings on my X30 I also experience occasional fret buzz on the lower E and A strings. It is easy to avoid though. Since the guitar has plenty of bass, hitting those string a little less hard is no big deal.
So remembering this post I proceeded to put a medium LoE and A on there.... that made a HUGE difference. It is almost gone. Extremely unforgiving of errors in finger placement vis a vis the fret, but maybe that will force me to try harder to play right.....

Just spent a long hour playing it and actually not focusing on "the problem" but on my playing/the music. I was enjoying myself. This is progress.

It is still, by far, the most comfortable instrument I own, or have ever played for that matter.
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CF:
Emerald X-30 Royal Ebony, Rainsong H-WS1000N2, Journey OF660
Martins:
000-Nylon, All Mahogany custom, 000-15SM, D16-GT (resto mod in progress), D15-M, Stinger SSL electric....
And a Kobza, Bouzouki, Hurdy Gurdy and something medieval looking.....
www.woodenshoe.blog
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