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[rockabilly69]

Originally Posted by abn556

The most famous Cream live version of a song is Crossroads. All the videos I have seen from 1968 show Clapton using the red 335 on that song.

Also the Beano album on a burst Les Paul is the most ground breaking tone work done by Clapton is almost certainly done with old bumblebee caps that were in the burst era Les Pauls.

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I liked Beano and the live Crossroads tone, but...

Their most popular song, "Sunshine Of Your Love" and most important, the one that DEFINED the "Woman Tone" was recorded with the Fool SG with the ceramic capacitors. Funny because a lot of people selling PIO caps say they really get the Woman Tone.

sounds pretty great to me...





And I feel he evolved from the Beano Album with Cream. I also love his 1964 Firebird I tone which was also ceramic caps!

[Blackmore Fan]

Originally Posted by rokdog49

I don’t think they do a whole lot for the tone. That’s in the pickups, equipment you plat through and your fingers.

I agree. "High end" caps are unnecessary. Paper-in-oil in particular make me laugh--that technology is completely out-dated.

[Blackmore Fan]

Originally Posted by davidd

Well this guy thinks PIO Caps belong in the trash. This was a link the Ron Kirn posted...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67M7fsbLUIU&t=2s

Ron Kirn is a master builder, and he's built guitars for some great players.

[rockabilly69]

Originally Posted by Blackmore Fan

Ron Kirn is a master builder, and he's built guitars for some great players.

The link posted in your reply shows that the guy thinks you should replace old PIO caps because of DC leakage. The OP is not advocating using vintage out of spec PIO caps, he just says he prefers the sound of PIO caps over cheaper ceramic caps. There are PIO caps that are available new made to the same specs as the vintage PIO caps (ie Luxe, Mojotone, Magneto Design, Jensen, etc). And as for them being outdated technology who says that? They are just one of many styles of caps that are available and many builders of amps and guitars prefer them. As for Ron Kirn's opinion he is in a minority of master builders that feel this way about PIO caps, especially those building and chasing vintage tone like Tom Bartlett, Gil Yaron, Ken McKay, Johan Gustavsson, etc.

[bleedingfingers]

Originally Posted by rockabilly69

The link posted in your reply shows that the guy thinks you should replace old PIO caps because of DC leakage. The OP is not advocating using vintage out of spec PIO caps, he just says he prefers the sound of PIO caps over cheaper ceramic caps. There are PIO caps that are available new made to the same specs as the vintage PIO caps (ie Luxe, Mojotone, Magneto Design, Jensen, etc). And as for them being outdated technology who says that? They are just one of many styles of caps that are available and many builders of amps and guitars prefer them. As for Ron Kirn's opinion he is in a minority of master builders that feel this way about PIO caps, especially those building and chasing vintage tone like Tom Bartlett, Gil Yaron, Ken McKay, Johan Gustavsson, etc.

In a general electrical engineering sense, PIO caps simply are outdated technology. Other newer options work better in terms of general properties (function over wider temp ranges, can be built to wider voltage ranges, can be built to higher and lower capacitances, can be built with less variability, can be built more cheaply, etc), and that has been true at least since the 1960s. Oil immersion was still somewhat used into the 1980s for high voltage applications, but even that corner case has died out with newer better tech becoming available (and guitars and amps are not high voltage anyway)

The only application keeping PIO caps alive at all AFAIK are guitar traditionalists and boutique small-scale manufacturers like Luxe who have re-introduced “vintage spec” ones to cater to that corner market. Which is why they cost what they cost — there is no economy of scale to PIO caps any more. Anyone building electrical things for any other market than “vintage correct guitar” who is needing a capacitor will select something newer that is cheaper and has overall better electrical and manufacturing properties…

[printer2]

I recall reading up on the capacitor types but that was years ago and I tend to forget things that are not all that important. I do not recall any electrical specification that makes oil and paper better. If anyone has a technical explanation why they are better I would take that into account. Until then I put a big question mark on the pixie dust caps.

[abn556]

The cheapest possible mass produced component that meets the bare minimum spec is not what I’m interested in for my guitars and amps. If I was I could easily get some $100 transistor piece of crap amp at GC and a made in Malaysia Strat. I makes no sense to buy a $6k guitar and then rationalize how to cheap out on a few parts.

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[rockabilly69]

Originally Posted by bleedingfingers

In a general electrical engineering sense, PIO caps simply are outdated technology. Other newer options work better in terms of general properties (function over wider temp ranges, can be built to wider voltage ranges, can be built to higher and lower capacitances, can be built with less variability, can be built more cheaply, etc), and that has been true at least since the 1960s. Oil immersion was still somewhat used into the 1980s for high voltage applications, but even that corner case has died out with newer better tech becoming available (and guitars and amps are not high voltage anyway)

The only application keeping PIO caps alive at all AFAIK are guitar traditionalists and boutique small-scale manufacturers like Luxe who have re-introduced “vintage spec” ones to cater to that corner market. Which is why they cost what they cost — there is no economy of scale to PIO caps any more. Anyone building electrical things for any other market than “vintage correct guitar” who is needing a capacitor will select something newer that is cheaper and has overall better electrical and manufacturing properties…

And guitar traditionalists still insist they can hear the difference when chasing the tone of the vintage guitars, so as I say, they are not outdated technology when used in guitar applications. I have a pretty accurate Sencore capacitance meter available to me so I can measure values (and DC leakage if testing older caps), so I will still be able to match values before I test caps in the actual guitar. And as I stated earlier, I like to alligator clamp caps into the circuit, and listen with my own ears to hear any differences, and more than once, I've chosen a PIO cap over a modern cap. There just seemed to me a smoothness on the top end that made me choose the cap. And the PIO caps don't win all the time in my tests. I've had good luck with some modern caps too.

I've been doing guitar repair for over 40 years, and I have hundreds of guitars on my bench, so this is not just a random sample I'm talking about. I personally own over 50 electric guitars, and have done pickup swaps on over half of them too. I'm a tinkerer and tone junkie all wrapped up into one.
I keep pretty good picture records of guitar repairs and as you can see I use all sorts of caps...
















I use my tone controls when playing guitar. I very rarely have them wide open at 10 so to say. And I think that's when cap materials/values come into play more.

[davidd]

Originally Posted by rockabilly69

And guitar traditionalists still insist they can hear the difference when chasing the tone of the vintage guitars, so as I say, they are not outdated technology when used in guitar applications. I have a pretty accurate Sencore capacitance meter available to me so I can measure values (and DC leakage if testing older caps), so I will still be able to match values before I test caps in the actual guitar. And as I stated earlier, I like to alligator clamp caps into the circuit, and listen with my own ears to hear any differences, and more than once, I've chosen a PIO cap over a modern cap. There just seemed to me a smoothness on the top end that made me choose the cap. And the PIO caps don't win all the time in my tests. I've had good luck with some modern caps too.

I've been doing guitar repair for over 40 years, and I have hundreds of guitars on my bench, so this is not just a random sample I'm talking about. I personally own over 50 electric guitars, and have done pickup swaps on over half of them too. I'm a tinkerer and tone junkie all wrapped up into one.
I keep pretty good picture records of guitar repairs and as you can see I use all sorts of caps...
















I use my tone controls when playing guitar. I very rarely have them wide open at 10 so to say. And I think that's when cap materials/values come into play more.

It's a good thing I don't show my soldering... You have some beautiful clean wiring going on there!

[rockabilly69]

Originally Posted by davidd

It's a good thing I don't show my soldering... You have some beautiful clean wiring going on there!

Thanks, I guess practice makes perfect, but I'm far from there!

[printer2]

Originally Posted by abn556

The cheapest possible mass produced component that meets the bare minimum spec is not what I’m interested in for my guitars and amps. If I was I could easily get some $100 transistor piece of crap amp at GC and a made in Malaysia Strat. I makes no sense to buy a $6k guitar and then rationalize how to cheap out on a few parts.

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Not the point. The point is if the expensive part does more than the cheap part.

[rockabilly69]

Originally Posted by printer2

Not the point. The point is if the expensive part does more than the cheap part.

In my case, yes the expensive part did a better job for the guitars that I chose them for. But let me be clear, I don't just pick parts because of their expense, unless I'm restoring a vintage piece for somebody, and they want as close to original as I can get. In that case, I'll try to source an NOS cap and test it to make sure it's in spec before I install it.

[Lefty MacGuffin]

I wouldn’t begin to question what another hears in regards to tone but there are a couple of misconceptions I would like to address. PIO caps are rarely used in modern amps. The vast majority of capacitors are various film types. This has been true for 60 years. Also, ceramic caps were and still are wildly used in tube amps. Nearly all of the classic amps from the 50’s and 60’s had ceramic caps. This includes Fender blackface amps that used ceramics on the phase inverter input through which the entire single passed.

[clintj]

Taper does not affect tone and the action of an RC filter like a tone control. All the taper does is affect how fast the changes happen over the pot sweep; electrically a 30% audio taper pot at the midtravel point is identical to a linear taper pot at the 30% travel point. For a 500k pot you still have 150k on one set of lugs and 350k on the other. We only use audio taper pots because they more closely follow the logarithmic nature of human hearing for volume.

[rokdog49]

Originally Posted by abn556

The cheapest possible mass produced component that meets the bare minimum spec is not what I’m interested in for my guitars and amps. If I was I could easily get some $100 transistor piece of crap amp at GC and a made in Malaysia Strat. I makes no sense to buy a $6k guitar and then rationalize how to cheap out on a few parts.

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First off, if it makes you happy, you’re absolutely free to spend as much as you want and buy what you want.
If I had bought a $6000 guitar with inexpensive components, I would have to ask myself why the best components available weren’t in it to start with
Anyway, I fail to see why you have to denigrate any other equipment.
I just bought a “made in Indonesia” Squier Strat that sounds and plays as good as most of the other Strats I’ve owned and I’ve owned a bunch. I don’t see the need to change anything with it and I seriously doubt it would matter …not to me anyway.
Second, if I could play like John Mayer or somebody, it wouldn’t amount to a hill of beans what caps were in my guitar or amp and nobody would care, including my fellow musicians.
It’s your hobby, I understand.