What I don't understand about the Carbon fiber Guitar world....

[revj]

I own two Rainsong guitars with the unilateral carbon that seems to give the guitar the tone of wood and the benefits of Carbon. Rainsong Concert and Hybrid systems have the look and sound that try's to mimic wood.

In the land of Guitars, the soundboard, the Top, is the most important part of the guitar it seems. Bracing matters, material matters, even down to the grain pattern matters and glues used. My ear can tell the difference.

But yet the trend is the Carbon world is let's just make it look pretty, put a thin piece of wood on their to make it pretty...which works against everything of conventional wisdom of making a good sounding guitar.

Shouldn't we be focusing on making a guitar that sounds better? Where is the experimenting with different weaves and grain patterns? The balancing between rigidity and movement? What about trying the make the top as thin as possible and adding carbon braces change the sound as you like. That could make a canon?

I just don't understand the Carbon Guitar world yet.

[kramster]

The manufacturers do experiment with weaves, layers and materials, they have been for years and still do...ask them. Wood laminate is just another layer and a lot look great. Some folks like a good looking guitar that sounds and plays great... Weird I know.

[David Eastwood]

Originally Posted by revj

Shouldn't we be focusing on making a guitar that sounds better? Where is the experimenting with different weaves and grain patterns? The balancing between rigidity and movement? What about trying the make the top as thin as possible and adding carbon braces change the sound as you like. That could make a canon?

Don’t you think that the existing established makers have already been through many cycles of this kind of experimentation? If you watch enough Emerald videos, for example, Alistair Hay makes lots of references to adjusting top construction for specific instruments (notably the nylon variants), and Rainsong had plenty to say about their recent foray into using a wood/CF mix for their newest models.

It’s not just slapping fiber and resin into a mold

[jdinco]

I get your point OP...I think McPherson has done what you mention, they do brace their guitars and haven't slapped any wood on their guitars yet. And to me they have the best tone. I'm sure a lot of work goes into making all the CF guitars sound their best.

[DethWshBkr]

I'm certainly no expert on the construction of guitars -
However wood has some things going against it.... Inconsistency, moisture, and other inherent flaws.

Vibration of the top is the key, isn't it? A thick chunk of wood doesn't translate sound too well. So, it needs thinned out to allow resonance and vibration. Due to grain and strength issues with wood, that now requires bracing to prevent the instrument from self destructing. So, being required to develop bracing that is supportive, yet not restrictive is the issue with wood. Isn't that also why wood is considered "warm" sounding? You are heading the deadening of the vibration from the bracing, and the moisture and inconsistency of the wood generate that tone (which isn't necessarily a bad thing!)

Carbon? It's consistent, super light, ridiculously strong, and predictable. They can make a top super thin, because the carbon won't "age" or wear from the string stress. It can be layered so it supports itself based on the structure of the carbon. As a result, it doesn't NEED bracing inside to support itself, and that helps the top vibrate more, causing the super clarity and "harshness" of the sound. Nothing is deadening the vibration at all.
Adding a wood veneer, although wood, is physically fused to the carbon, so it doesn't exhibit the issues with wood tops.

Again, I am NOT a luthier, but as a mechanically minded person, that's the way I would look at it!

[Earl49]

Every builder that I am aware of has put extensive effort into shaping tone, and then come up with the best combination of tone and constructability that works for them. That does not mean that the goal was to specifically emulate wooden tone with great accuracy. And everyone builds using multiple layers. Simply adding a wood veneer for appearances reportedly does not change the fundamental tone of each builder's instruments, as far as we can tell. Blackbird apparently modified their Lucky 13 with braces to affect the tone for its last two years of production. I own a braced one built in OCT 2016, but have never played the prior version to compare. My Rainsong WS-1000 built in 2001 has a 1/4" thick layer of foam inside under the top, which I presume adds some damping characteristic to the otherwise clean vibration of the woven top.

Some variations -- like unidirectional fabric instead of woven fabric tops -- have been reported to be "warmer or woodier" than pure CF weave. Each builder has their own unique tone profile and approach, just like building with wood.

[GuitarDoc]

My first carbon was a Peavey Composite acoustic and it’s so mellow. The Rainsong I tried that day were too high pitched. But I heard the previous CA’s were brighter also. Was Peavey trying to find a niche in the market. But adding a Veneer, the looks of a guitar are important. Looking down at a cool instrument you design does inspire.

[zeeway]

If this is a debate about which type of guitar has more bling typically, wood guitars win hands down. I think some wood guitars are treated as museum quality furniture more than musical instruments.

The layers of wood starting to appear as an option on carbon guitars certainly can be considered bling, but compared to most any wood guitar these days, carbon guitars are still plain-janes imho.

[mountainmaster]

No worries, I don't get it either. When I go carbon it has to be carbon all the way.

But then you won't find any wild grain patterns on my wood guitars either. Plain old spruce, cedar or mahogany has always been good enough for me.

[merlin666]

I don't know about the approach of modern carbon top development but historically when Ovation developed the Adamas top in the early 70s there were several years of R&D until they got it right. They did extensive vibrometer analysis of all experimental tops and involved leading guitar players of the time such as Glenn Campbell in the development and playing of prototypes. Even production models included a vibrogram that displayed the sonic characteristics of the top. For quite some time the resulting guitars were at the price level of Martin D-45.

[Earl49]

Good point, Merlin. When I last saw Adamas models regularly in my local store (Anchorage) back in the mid 90's the price was around $3500 IIRC. They did not sell very quickly. The first Woodsong carbon fiber (early precursor to Rainsong) models were in the same price range and were boutique builds from Maui. When I finally bought a WS-1000 in 2001 they were running about $1700 new. I still have that one.

Adamas models used a birch/CF sandwich and the epaulet-style multiple sound hole scheme. They were always very nice guitars with deep bodied bowls and were WAY above my pay grade.

[Goodallboy]

I own a plain black Emerald X30.

If it could sound any better, I seriously doubt it.

Would I prefer one with a beautiful wood top, sure, they're amazing. And since there's not bracing and purfling, and all that goes into a wooden guitar, I could rest assured the X30 with the wood top would sound exactly like the plain one. Try that with ANY wooden guitar, maker or model.

Like you, I didn't understand the carbon fiber world and speaking of myself only, I was a bit snobbish and ignorant.

The X30 is in the top tier of guitars that I've played over my 40+ years playing guitar. The minutia isn't relevant after that.

Revj;

I think you are missing a lot of factors in the CF revolution. Where else are you going to get a custom guitar of Emerald quality.? Where else are you going the kind of advancements pursued by Rainsong and Composite Acoustics??

You may have noticed that many of this forum's members are coming here from Martins and Taylors. I come here from a traditional classical guitar past. And we come to carbon fiber for reasons well beyond durability. For example, I don't have to spend a half hour tuning my CF nylon strung guitars. And I've had two of Emerald's beautiful veneer tops, and their sound is marvelous.

Anyway, I suppose we've become a bit fanatical having put our money where our mouths would normally be. As to future development: It looks to me like it's happening in the composite world. And you're right, more can be done. I, too, would like to see some thinner tops on nylon string CF guitars. I would also to see some double-top CF instruments. There is no end to perfection.

[Simon@Caulfield]

There are so many variables at play when making a carbon fibre instrument. As someone who has both worked to a manufacturer and has a lot of experience with carbon and guitars, I do believe wood has an impact the sound. However, there are many variables at play and unless a manufacture has an extremely robust and repeatable procedure other factors can play a bigger part (so it's tricky to isolate the impact of wood).

I've recently been doing a lot of research on this topic, but i agree with the topic of this thread. The scope for carbon fibre to be unique and special is sometimes restricted by manufactures emulating wood.

Many manufactures also are not completely forthcoming with their process (for obvious reasons). There's also a vast array of carbon weaves, layups, orientations and weights which all have an impact. Just because the surface carbon is one type, it's hard to know what lies in the underlying layers, its orientation or its weave style. Unless someone would like to volunteer their guitar to be cross-sectioned?

I've found that if the top of the instrument is of completely uniform thickness and layup, it gives less projection and dynamic rage when compared to a top that’s braced or stiffened around the bridge. This is in line with what you’d find from wooden instruments. I'll share my findings with you guys when I finish the paper.

Given what's found in newspapers, you might be happier just getting to your findings.