"I'd never buy a guitar without trying it first."

[s2y]

Originally Posted by theEdwinson

I have successfully sold numerous guitars I've built to people who live hundreds or thousands of miles away, and many of them came back around for a second, or even third one, or signed up for custom builds. When I send a guitar out, I insist that the (potential) buyer should have a trial period to see if it's a good fit. It IS a giant leap of faith to plunk down a stack of lucre on a guitar you've never played. And it works out great if the seller doesn't put the (potential) buyer in a position of risk.

So my personal rule is to not misrepresent my guitars in any way, but to be as accurate as I can in describing all the features and character of a guitar. And having detailed discussions with the (potential) buyer, about their preferences, playing style, other guitars they own, etc. And then, send it out, and let the guitar speak for itself. Guitars are not capable of misrepresenting themselves in any way. They can only give you their most honest testimony. No amount of hype will make a mediocre instrument one iota better than it truly is.

I have sent a couple guitars out on a trial basis, and the person who tried it says, "I love this guitar... but... there's this one thing that I don't like. Can you make me a custom one with a modern V-carve on the neck (or whatever)?" And that becomes the beginning of a rewarding friendship and long association with this person.

I also really enjoy working with people who are dedicated collectors, who like to rotate their holdings. When a person has a strong case of GAS, and the resources to support it, they can sell off some guitars and acquire new ones. I like it when someone sells a guitar I made to the next person, because then my guitars become better known, and act as emissaries for my brand. It's a win-win-win situation.

My advice to anyone who is considering buying an expensive guitar, do your research. Find out everything you can about the guitar, the reputation of the person who made it, and you should definitely talk to the luthier first, and only move forward if the seller allows you to try it out before committing to buy. You should expect to pay all the shipping charges, but that should be the limit of your financial risk, until you decide that you love the guitar and want to keep it.

Thanks for offering some luthier insight.

How do you make sure the buyer knows what they want? I get the impression that the skeptics tend to be very nit picky and/or simply can't be happy with what's in front of them. This particular forum is mostly made up of guys who usually don't play acoustic guitar. After many years of playing acoustic guitar, I'm under the impression that ideal tone comes only with a lot of practice.

[SprintBob]

Originally Posted by s2y

This particular forum is mostly made up of guys who usually don't play acoustic guitar. After many years of playing acoustic guitar, I'm under the impression that ideal tone comes only with a lot of practice.

While I certainly agree with the validity of your second statement, I’m not sure how you have drawn your conclusion on the first.

I have a Kostal on commission, very much enjoy this sub-forum, and I play EVERY day and being that disciplined has helped my ear develop to where I could explain to Jason what I am looking for tonally. I get the impression I am not alone in that process in reading threads and posts here.

[guitarchie]

hi folks,

meanwhile in my herd there is still only my first guitar from the seventies, a D35S, made from a factory and even this was sent at that time from America without any further experience than having heard a similar guitar in shops or from famous players who played it at concerts. Allt the other guitars are from luthiers and in my memory there are at last only two I played before purchasing.
There exist a lot of guitarshows, where you can meet the luthier play one or some of his or her guitars and I never was disappointed.
Honestly I have to say that to my opinion all these guitars from luthiers were quite better than all factory guitars I've ever played including my beloved first one.
So to my opinion you can`t get wrong trusting in a luthiers ability, craftmanship and creativity.
That should not say, that it is not possible to be a content customer of a factory-made guitar, but like I wrote, I never found one which could compete against a luthier-made guitar.

all the best

guitarchie

[tadol]

Its hard to judge how many custom guitars are purchased where the owner is 100% satisfied, but it does seem that there are a pretty fair number of custom built guitars, some commissioned by extremely experienced and capable players, that end up for sale used within a relatively short period of time, or with very little play time on them.

I think the biggest mistake you can make is to buy based solely on recommendations from anyone you haven’t played with, or from someone whose instruments you haven’t had a chance to play. I hate to say it, but I’ve seen a number of rave reviews for guitars and builders that I’ve had the chance to play and listen to, and its very obvious that we all hear things very differently. Builders aesthetic style, and the tone their construction style tends to create, both need to be taken into consideration. And if you can find someone local you can work with, that’s always a plus. Finally, if resale is a high priority to you - I’d say you’re on the wrong road -

It can be a costly choice, but a bespoke instrument that fits you is a joyous thing -

[s2y]

Originally Posted by SprintBob

While I certainly agree with the validity of your second statement, I’m not sure how you have drawn your conclusion on the first.

I have a Kostal on commission, very much enjoy this sub-forum, and I play EVERY day and being that disciplined has helped my ear develop to where I could explain to Jason what I am looking for tonally. I get the impression I am not alone in that process in reading threads and posts here.

There have been threads asking if guys own acoustics, % time on acoustic, etc. The acoustic subforum is fairly inactive compared to electric guitar.

[Mark Hatcher]

Originally Posted by s2y

There have been threads asking if guys own acoustics, % time on acoustic, etc. The acoustic subforum is fairly inactive compared to electric guitar.

Not sure what you are talking about. The custom forum is usually has double the activity the electric forum does. Nationally, electric guitar sales are down 30% in the last ten years and acoustic guitars sales are way up in the same time period.

[s2y]

Originally Posted by Mark Hatcher

Not sure what you are talking about. The custom forum is usually has double the activity the electric forum does. Nationally, electric guitar sales are down 30% in the last ten years and acoustic guitars sales are way up in the same time period.

I'm talking about a different forum. They're good for electric, not the best for acoustic or bass, which is why I also belong to this forum and a bass forum.

[TomB'sox]

Originally Posted by s2y

Thanks for offering some luthier insight.

How do you make sure the buyer knows what they want? I get the impression that the skeptics tend to be very nit picky and/or simply can't be happy with what's in front of them. This particular forum is mostly made up of guys who usually don't play acoustic guitar. After many years of playing acoustic guitar, I'm under the impression that ideal tone comes only with a lot of practice.

Originally Posted by s2y

There have been threads asking if guys own acoustics, % time on acoustic, etc. The acoustic subforum is fairly inactive compared to electric guitar.

Originally Posted by s2y

I'm talking about a different forum. They're good for electric, not the best for acoustic or bass, which is why I also belong to this forum and a bass forum.

Well haha, I was totally confused as well as to what you meant. In the first post you say "this particular forum" which made me think you were discussing the Acoustic Guitar Forum since that is "this particular forum" and you don't ever mention that you were talking about a different forum all together unless I missed it, then you are discussing threads in a forum and of course most would assume you meant this one since you are posting in a thread about acoustics and purchasing them without trying them.

I thank you for clarifying that you were not discussing this forum at all. So OK then. Anyway, thanks.

[s2y]

Originally Posted by TomB'sox

Well haha, I was totally confused as well as to what you meant. In the first post you say "this particular forum" which made me think you were discussing the Acoustic Guitar Forum since that is "this particular forum" and you don't ever mention that you were talking about a different forum all together unless I missed it, then you are discussing threads in a forum and of course most would assume you meant this one since you are posting in a thread about acoustics and purchasing them without trying them.

I thank you for clarifying that you were not discussing this forum at all. So OK then. Anyway, thanks.

Most forums don't like discussing other forums, otherwise I'd mention it. A big electronic guitar forum should be a relatively good hint.

That being said, there seems to be some disconnect between the handcrafted subforum and the general subforum here. I'd imagine more than a few guys in the general acoustic subforum share the thought to avoid commissioning builds due to the perceived risks.

[TomB'sox]

Originally Posted by s2y

Most forums don't like discussing other forums, otherwise I'd mention it. A big electronic guitar forum should be a relatively good hint.

That being said, there seems to be some disconnect between the handcrafted subforum and the general subforum here. I'd imagine more than a few guys in the general acoustic subforum share the thought to avoid commissioning builds due to the perceived risks.

Yes, understood and agreed. You are correct in not mentioning the other forum as we do not allow that. It was just not clear in that first post what you were saying, that is all.

I agree also that there tends to be a lot of folks in the general section that never venture into the custom section for whatever reason. Maybe trying to save their wallets from being emptied with all the beautiful builds over here. I should pay attention to that!!!

[ChuckS]

Originally Posted by s2y

…[snip]…

That being said, there seems to be some disconnect between the handcrafted subforum and the general subforum here. I'd imagine more than a few guys in the general acoustic subforum share the thought to avoid commissioning builds due to the perceived risks.

Lots of reason why the custom subforum is somewhat isolated/disconnected from some members. For some it may be financial; handbuilts may simply be more they they can/want to spend. For some, they may see no benefit based on what they want and how they play. For some, it may be that they feel their skills don't justify it or they are not yet ready. For some, they may be concerned about the additional risks.

I tend to think about and manage risks (yet at times I may just go full steam ahead). But even so, I agree that commissioning a build, or even buying a handbuilt guitar after it's been completed, has risks that a factory built guitar does not. So, for me the real issue is minimizing the risks, seeing if I'm still reasonably comfortable with them, then weighing the risks against the benefits.

[Guitars44me]

Originally Posted by ChuckS

Lots of reason why the custom subforum is somewhat isolated/disconnected from some members. For some it may be financial; handbuilts may simply be more they they can/want to spend. For some, they may see no benefit based on what they want and how they play. For some, it may be that they feel their skills don't justify it or they are not yet ready. For some, they may be concerned about the additional risks.

I tend to think about and manage risks (yet at times I may just go full steam ahead). But even so, I agree that commissioning a build, or even buying a handbuilt guitar after it's been completed, has risks that a factory built guitar does not. So, for me the real issue is minimizing the risks, seeing if I'm still reasonably comfortable with them, then weighing the risks against the benefits.

For me, working repeatedly with John Kinnaird, I have designed myself into trouble. Hahahahaha
Where else can I get huge bevels, port, elevated FB extension, Manzer Wedge, CF filled neck with no TR, custom neck carve, HUGE TONE AND VOLUME, Snake headstock, Guitar voiced to D and set up for low action with my fave Elixir HD Lights? Also, John likes, or at least tolerates my preference for relatively retro appearance. (Save for the bevels, etc.)
Also they keep getting lighter, as I keep begging for MORE COMFORT.
Yes, I am really spoiled, but I do get to play them for folks who can actually hear them. 20 gigs this month. These instruments do not just sit at home in my music room. They go out in the world and cheer the elderly and infirm.
Best investments I have ever made. I may have to sell one eventually, but I hope NOT.
Play the good ones, and HAVE FUN

Paul

[s2y]

Originally Posted by ChuckS

Lots of reason why the custom subforum is somewhat isolated/disconnected from some members. For some it may be financial; handbuilts may simply be more they they can/want to spend. For some, they may see no benefit based on what they want and how they play. For some, it may be that they feel their skills don't justify it or they are not yet ready. For some, they may be concerned about the additional risks.

I tend to think about and manage risks (yet at times I may just go full steam ahead). But even so, I agree that commissioning a build, or even buying a handbuilt guitar after it's been completed, has risks that a factory built guitar does not. So, for me the real issue is minimizing the risks, seeing if I'm still reasonably comfortable with them, then weighing the risks against the benefits.

LOL, so many guys spend time justifying what they do and don't play based on perceived risk, talent, finances, etc. Let's not ignore that many guitarists will tell you what they paid for any given piece of gear, even though nobody asked. The psychology of musicians is......probably why I eventually moved towards solo acoustic.

Sure, it's nice if you can try something first. I don't live in a big enough city where I can try out several Martins or Taylors of the same make/model, especially when the price tag is over $1,500.

[redir]

I'm pretty certain that if you ask any of the luthiers here on the AGF they will tell you that they never built two guitars that sound the same. I even tried it once by building two guitars from the same wood right off the same log in successive cuts. Two different guitars came from it. So there's something to be said about the try before you buy philosophy.

The more experienced luthiers can build guitars more consistently and in the direction that the client wants. So if you want a highly responsive finger style guitar for example then they can get you there. But that doens't garunetee that you will like it.

I'm building one now for a guy who bought a guitar I built about 10 years ago on eBay (the original owner sold it) who came to me and said I want you to build another one just like that! I told him I can't! But I will try. It's a bit nerve wracking doing commission work for that reason.

I can honestly say though that I've never built a bad sounding guitar, except for dumb experimental ones which all got retopped in the end anyway. But even my very first guitar that I built in 1990 and STILL play sounds pretty darn good. And I am only saying that not to toot my own horn but becasue I think that is true for most builders and hobby builders alike. Building a decent sounding guitar only requires you to follow a recipe. It's just a construction project of wood and glue. But some don't sound as good while others are rare and exceptional gems. So there can almost be an ethical dilemma there like if I build a guitar on commission for someone and know right away that it's not really one of the good ones. I mean it's still good yeah but it's not one of those magical ones. The better luthiers don't have those problems, or they have less of those problems but it's gonna cost ya too.

[Silly Moustache]

Hi, I first started ordering custom guitars in the early '70s because I became good friends with a starving luthier who really wanted to build and there simply wasn't the sort of guitars I wanted around. He built me a Brazilian SJ200, that I immediately disliked and sold on at a small profit, and a 12 string very much like the D12-35 style, which looked pretty good but started to implode within weeks.

My later history of custom orders have all been pretty poor experiences, partly due to my ignorance of what exactly what I wanted and luthier mistakes.

The last one (and I mean the last one!) was a customised Huss and Dalton DS12 in 2008 (my 60th birthday) - the customisation was just a wider neck, but it was a disaster from day one, and a very unpleasant story, difficult for me and the long suffering dealer. I lost a couple of thou on that one.

Thankfully Collings and Santa Cruz have a very different ethos regarding customer service, but no such issues have occurred.

As regards buying used guitars that I haven't "test driven" most of my guitars come under this category, but over the years, I have learnt what brands and models served me best, and have never had issues with my remote purchases.

The secret (?) in both cases is to know in advance exactly what you want and to be able to ascertain how a purchase will meet your requirements.

As far as tone, I have formed an opinion of what brands will most likely give me what I want, but with new guitars and pre-owned ones, I feel that it is largely my responsibility to open up the guitar to respond to my style.

It takes work to bond with an instrument, it doesn't "just" happen.