NGD: A Stella/Sovereign?

Salty_Dog · #1 08-22-2023, 09:34 PM

Hey there, sorry if this is the wrong area, I'm new.
A bit more than a week ago, I ordered a guitar sold as a "Washburn" on Reverb. The pictures were poor but they said it played well and it was obviously mahogany, so I jumped on it. I recieved it today (with a frustratingly low saddle, and a small face carved into the top seeming with a fingernail). I noticed that the fret marker was at the 9th rather than the 10th. I decided to measure it with the idea of sourcing a better fitting case. It's a 15-1/4 000 (as I thought it might be, though I was thinking it'd be smaller) and the scale length... 26-1/2. I was rather shocked, but after some comparison I am rather convinced I posess some variant of Oscar Schmidt. What are your thoughts?

Jim Owen · #2 08-22-2023, 09:41 PM

My Washburn has the 10 marker. But there’s also a stamp on the back bracing that says George Washburn. If you can post some pictures, others will chime in with ideas.

How old do you think it is?

Welcome to the forum!

Salty_Dog · #3 08-22-2023, 09:59 PM

Very sorry, I thought I had...

I estimate 1925 +/- 10y. I know they switched a 9th fret maler around 35... iirc.

No stamp or makers mark. Replacement tuners. Chunky C/V neck.

Jim Owen · #4 08-23-2023, 09:17 AM

That’s a fine looking guitar.

Glennwillow · #5 08-23-2023, 09:53 AM

Congrats on the cool old guitar! And welcome to the AGF!

- Glenn

Salty_Dog · #6 08-23-2023, 02:08 PM

Thank you all quite kindly! It is a lovely instruement despite its oddity (I mean, look at that huge lower bout...!). The sound is excellent, warm but vibrant and rich. I hope to make a clip to demonstrate later today. I just wish I could figure out who built it! It also has the fancy back stripe I have seen on other Schmidt builds

Jim Owen · #7 08-24-2023, 08:37 AM

Nice! Next week, I’ll post shots of my Washburn as a comparison.

Salty_Dog · #8 08-24-2023, 10:59 AM

I can't wait to see them! I'm having trouble finding what makes even used a 26.5 scale, besides O.S. I know that there was at least one other, as some Tonk Bros guitars (possibly Regal?) Had a 27" scale. The body shape is also quite distinctive, as is the neck carve. It is quite different (fatter/fuller and more rounded) than the neck of my 30s Regal short-scale (~24ish IIRC). Another hurdle: it's bigger than any Stella I have seen evidence of with this body shape by around a full half-inch. A confusing guitar indeed.

ETA: Some similar-looking Schmidts:

https://www.vintagestellaguitars.com/shop/

http://www.montaine-antiques.com/mus...-parlor-guitar

zombywoof · #9 08-24-2023, 12:29 PM

I have owned more than a few Scmidt-made guitars over the decades and still have two around.

Take a look at the neck joint. If it is a Schmidt-made guitar the heel will be angled relative to the back plane. I believe Schmidt was the only builder to go this route.

ReinvanBelle · #10 08-24-2023, 01:12 PM

The bridge and the scale length make me think of Oscar Schmidt as well. The low saddle may be just the nature of the thing, many Schmidts were even made with a fretwire saddle so the (bone celluloid ?) saddle may never haven been as high as we expect a healthy saddle to be nowadays. Of course we never know as I guess mostly all of these guitars had some work done to them in the past 90 or 100 years.I have a grand concert sized Stella myself, oak and spruce build sometime before 1923.

ReinvanBelle · #11 08-24-2023, 01:14 PM

actually i found the biggest problem finding a case is the long scale and thus neck so my 000 12 fret case does not fit, I added some extra foam to 2nd hand dread case but a case for 14 fret L00 might work.

Salty_Dog · #12 08-24-2023, 01:31 PM

My guitar fits handily into a generic 000 case luckily. I hadn't thought about the fretwire saddle, that would make a lot of sense. And I don't have it handy right now, but I do recall that the heel cap has a bit of a radius. Belle, can I ask how you estimated the age? Label type? Build detail?

I will also take a look at the bracing when I get home, that might give us some more insight.

EDIT: Dread case, not 000 case. It does fit excellently in an old cardboard case from a Stella h913.

J Patrick · #13 08-24-2023, 02:05 PM

According to my Washburn book the only extra long scale guitar they made was a style 503…. It had a 27 inch scale and joined the body between the 10th and 11th fret…..it was made between 1889 and 1892…. It was marketed as a Contra Bass guitar and was tuned low…essential a bass instrument ….your guitar does not appear to be a Washburn but doesn’t really match up with Oscar Schmidt long scales either…is it ladder braced or X braced?…..it sure looks cool whatever it is…

Salty_Dog · #14 08-24-2023, 02:22 PM

I do know for certain that it's ladder braced, and quite lightly as well. What incongrurencies do you see as to it being a Schmidt build?

ETA: My reasons for my guess:

-Bridge style.
-Scale length.
-Finish - might be shellac, had some blushing from prior attempt at dent removal that I made worse with rubbing alcohol (oops) but cleaned up nicely w/ heat gun.
-Purfling back stripe - quite fancy, and similar to other schmidt that I've seen.
-Bracing - very lightly ladder braced.
-10th fret dot.
-Body shape - similar to older Schmidt GC size.

Oddities:
-large-lower body
-oddly high but original birdge placement.

ReinvanBelle · #15 08-25-2023, 02:17 AM

My guitar has a label from a music store in Kristiania, currently Oslo, Norway. The name changed to Oslo in 1924. The specs of mine are the same as no-603 in the 1921 catalogue of which I have a reprint supplied by Neil Harpe.
I think Oscar schmidt supplied unbranded guitars to other distrubutors and specs could vary alot and then there were also similar guitars build by independent New York based builders, but the details of this one look like a Stella or Sovereign. It seems to have manogany back and sides doesnt it ? The closest one in the 1921 catalogue is the 653 Sovereign.