Peavey to Release Composite Acoustics at NAMM

[inky]

I love this thread, almost as much as the one with the pics of the sexy women and guitars thread. Btw, it's 40 degrees celsius here, my guitars are inside in their cases, including my Somogyi. I just left my Cargo down by the pool under a towel so I don't burn my pinkies when I pick it up again.....
Cheers, and Merry Xmas .....Neil...

[Larry Pattis]

Originally Posted by gitnoob

Sure, over-setting the neck will allow a tall saddle and low action, but it'll also increase the torque on the top. Not sure that's a good thing with a carbon fiber top.

You do understand that with the 22.75" scale that even with medium gauge strings there is quite a bit less tension on the top of a Cargo than light gauge strings on a full-scale-length guitar?

...and none of the Cargos that passed through my hands showed any top deformation with going to the medium strings.

...and that changing to those medium gauge strings (even tuned down to DADGAD) also *does* produce a measurable change in neck relief?



One guitar did show up (from the retailer) with a crack across the back where the neck/body joint "area" was located...this was after CA had closed, and so the retailer was stuck with a guitar that could not be repaired or replaced. That made me sad.

I appreciate the work that the Mods have done on this thread, removing unnecessary name-calling etc.

I believe that while I may be the most consistent poster pointing out the flaws I see in the Cargo, I am not alone in my opinions on this subject...not by a long shot. Talk to Marty at the Podium if you want a set-up/tech guy's opinion on the "factory specs" of the neck angle on the "old" Cargo.

We certainly will see about the "new" Cargo pretty soon.

Lastly, I've said many times that the Cargo was an inspired idea, and that it became quickly popular for many appropriate reasons. It's unfortunate that the original design wasn't executed a bit better, or that after problems that the factory was aware of, they couldn't find the resources to make what IMO are necessary changes.

[stevezenof]

Maybe we all can just agree that there is disagreement among us. Is there ongoing value in both sides continuing to try and prove our points?

[Kindness]

Larry,

Again, just want to thank you for all of your input around this topic. NAMM is right around the corner,and they have already been maufacturing the CAs at Peavey for about a month.

It will be interesting to see what shops will carry the "new" CA. Will there be renewed interest? Who knows. But again, this guitar has a niche market, and a small one at that.

[cotten]

At least in this area, CA had a very sizable presence, and an awful lot of fans. Hard for me to think of CA as being a small niche, unless you're comparing them to the largest manufacturers.

Just my perspective, though.

cotten

[OpenD]

Originally Posted by patticake

i wouldn't say it's a version of the backpacker. it's got to be at least 4x as wide and twice as deep. it's more a version of the baby taylor/little martin, but oh, it sounds sooooo much better.

Sorry, what I meant that it was the smallest, cheapest model in the line, like the Backpacker is for Martin, and that it was developed as a travel guitar from the git-go. And that's what I bought it for. As a knock-around guitar I can throw in the back of the pickup on a hot Texas day (or a humid Hawai'ian day) and hand around at the picnic or the beach without worries. I've previously had two wooden guitars destroyed in such circumstances.

OpenD

[OpenD]

Originally Posted by Jeff M

OpenD, was wondering if you could fill us in a bit on your background...specifically, any background you might have in composite/CF guitar construction? What you say goes counter to what Rick Turner has posted. We know Rick....his career in luthery, guitar design, etc.
Always interested in learning more from the pros.

I never said I have any background in manufacturing guitars. I've just been playing them for 50 years, and I have a lot of experience in what it takes to keep wooden guitars running smooth, especially when you travel a lot with them, which I've done. And I've rassled with truss rods forevah, especially with the long series of 12-strings that have passed through my life. One guitar in particular, a sweet Canadian Larrivee I've owned a dozen years, undergoes visible changes from summer to winter, even with light strings. My Guild F-4 from the 70s, on the other hand, is built like a battleship, and weighs as much, and never needs adjusting, even with medium string sets. But it has a typical Guild problem from that era that the lacquer has crazed and even flaked off around the heel of the neck.

On the other hand, I do have hands-on experience with carbon fiber composite construction of aircraft parts. And I have 5 years experience owning and playing and traveling with CF guitars. Plus I had been following and admiring Ned Steinberger's work with composite construction long before that. I have one of his Synapse Transcale guitars with the baritone scale CF neck and it holds tune and action extremely well.

I've also long tried to find a suitable small guitar to carry when I travel for business or pleasure. I talked to Tuck Andress after a show in Seattle several years ago, and he discussed the logistics of traveling with his big L-4 archtop, which he ships in a hardshell case, inside a coffin case. His big nightmare is that someday he will open the case and find matchsticks, just before a concert. So as backup he was traveling at that time with a Traveler guitar as carryon luggage, custom fitted with the exact same pickups and controls as his L-4, that he could use in an emergency without having to change anything in his pedal and amp setup. I tried the Travelers, but just couldn't get into them.

Also no disrespect meant to Rick Turner, I simply hadn't read his posts. The thread(s) have been so long running I just skimmed over the backlist before posting and missed his.

In any case, my 2 key points are simply that 1) CA guitars have been wildly successful in circles I run in and are widely accepted and have a great reputation, contrary to much of what I saw being posted here, and 2) that CF necks are essentially so stiff that I can't see a truss rod as necessary, or even very useful. But I'm open to changing that opinion if someone shows me otherwise.

It does seem to me that some other solution might be applied to CF guitars if an adjustable neck angle is desired. I remember playing a guitar a number of years ago when I was in Boston that had a thumb-screw adjustment for neck angle that seemed to work very well. But due to wetware media failure, I can't remember who made it. Anybody?

OpenD

[laughingskunk]

I am just wondering...Is it fair to say that the most positive words and support for CA comes from those of us who own one or more? Also for those of us who own them how many of us want a change. Also, just wondering is it far to say that the most critical comments come from those who do not own one, and may or may not have spent much time playing one. I know Larry has made numerous comments on them, but from his posts I understand he has logged in some hours with them.
In some ways is Peavey saying we know that there were a group of people out there who are and were passionate about their Composite Acoustics, and we want to grab this market as well as increase it. They may not be concerned with making drastic changes in the guitar such as a truss rod, but in improving areas that they saw as relatively minor. I say relatively minor because I am assuming that Peavey recognized these guitars as quality ones and that is why they will be building them.
It may be irrational but I think there are a large number of us CA players who are very happy with our guitars. Hopefully we will be happy with the guitars that show up at NAAM.

[coldbrew]

Originally Posted by OpenD

Being bankrupt is not the same as filing for bankruptcy. The latter gives a company (or individual) certain legal protections under the law, and the intended outcome is to keep companies viable. Not every bankrupt company or individual (defined as having liabilities larger than assets) chooses to file bankruptcy.

OpenD

Sure, but any legal immunity from warranty claims would require a formal filing.

[carterjackson2]

I just hope the price on the originals stays down because I would like to own a couple more at some point, especially if I could find another Cargo in a burst or custom finish at a decent price. At this point I think the odds are not great that will happen.

[Larry Pattis]

Originally Posted by carterjackson2

I just hope the price on the originals stays down because I would like to own a couple more at some point, especially if I could find another Cargo in a burst or custom finish at a decent price. At this point I think the odds are not great that will happen.

I agree with you on your last point, as it's been made very clear that the pricing on the Cargo was artificially low to begin with.

Hoping for a low price-point from Peavey is one thing, and the realities of the cost of carbon fiber and construction are another...

On a somewhat related note, Hoffee carbon fiber cases started out (what, a year ago?) at $399, and when Doug Young wrote his excellent AG Mag. review I think they were at $499...now they are at $799.

Consider why.

[Steve Christens]

Originally Posted by OpenD

On the other hand, I do have hands-on experience with carbon fiber composite construction of aircraft parts......

In any case, my 2 key points are simply that 1) CA guitars have been wildly successful in circles I run in and are widely accepted and have a great reputation, contrary to much of what I saw being posted here, and 2) that CF necks are essentially so stiff that I can't see a truss rod as necessary, or even very useful. But I'm open to changing that opinion if someone shows me otherwise.

OpenD

Not sure where you got the idea that CF necks are necessarily so stiff that they can't bend. CF construction is only as stiff as you design it to be. High performance sailboats for example are made with CF masts that are designed to bend, so it is certainly possible to make a bendable CF neck that would respond to a truss rod. Probably would add quite a bit to the cost, but it is certainly possible. (Just ask Rainsong)

[Larry Pattis]

Originally Posted by Steve Christens

Not sure where you got the idea that CF necks are necessarily so stiff that they can't bend. CF construction is only as stiff as you design it to be. High performance sailboats for example are made with CF masts that are designed to bend, so it is certainly possible to make a bendable CF neck that would respond to a truss rod. Probably would add quite a bit to the cost, but it is certainly possible. (Just ask Rainsong)

What's interesting to me is that in being presented with the fact that Cargo necks can and *do* change in relief with different gauge strings, statements about their unyielding stiffness and no-need-for-adjustable-truss-rods persist.

In the face of factual information.

It's fascinating.

...and yes, Rainsong has adjustable truss-rods.

Go figure. They must be wrong. Rick Turner is wrong. I'm wrong.



We'll see pretty soon if Peavey does actually implement a better neck-angle (to provide for more downward adjustability of the saddle), as this "fix" shouldn't cost them much. This would be an interesting and good start.

[Jeff M]

Originally Posted by OpenD

I never said I have any background in manufacturing guitars. I've just been playing them for 50 years, and I have a lot of experience in what it takes to keep wooden guitars running smooth, especially when you travel a lot with them, which I've done. And I've rassled with truss rods forevah, especially with the long series of 12-strings that have passed through my life. One guitar in particular, a sweet Canadian Larrivee I've owned a dozen years, undergoes visible changes from summer to winter, even with light strings. My Guild F-4 from the 70s, on the other hand, is built like a battleship, and weighs as much, and never needs adjusting, even with medium string sets. But it has a typical Guild problem from that era that the lacquer has crazed and even flaked off around the heel of the neck.

On the other hand, I do have hands-on experience with carbon fiber composite construction of aircraft parts. And I have 5 years experience owning and playing and traveling with CF guitars. Plus I had been following and admiring Ned Steinberger's work with composite construction long before that. I have one of his Synapse Transcale guitars with the baritone scale CF neck and it holds tune and action extremely well.

I've also long tried to find a suitable small guitar to carry when I travel for business or pleasure. I talked to Tuck Andress after a show in Seattle several years ago, and he discussed the logistics of traveling with his big L-4 archtop, which he ships in a hardshell case, inside a coffin case. His big nightmare is that someday he will open the case and find matchsticks, just before a concert. So as backup he was traveling at that time with a Traveler guitar as carryon luggage, custom fitted with the exact same pickups and controls as his L-4, that he could use in an emergency without having to change anything in his pedal and amp setup. I tried the Travelers, but just couldn't get into them.

Also no disrespect meant to Rick Turner, I simply hadn't read his posts. The thread(s) have been so long running I just skimmed over the backlist before posting and missed his.

In any case, my 2 key points are simply that 1) CA guitars have been wildly successful in circles I run in and are widely accepted and have a great reputation, contrary to much of what I saw being posted here, and 2) that CF necks are essentially so stiff that I can't see a truss rod as necessary, or even very useful. But I'm open to changing that opinion if someone shows me otherwise.

It does seem to me that some other solution might be applied to CF guitars if an adjustable neck angle is desired. I remember playing a guitar a number of years ago when I was in Boston that had a thumb-screw adjustment for neck angle that seemed to work very well. But due to wetware media failure, I can't remember who made it. Anybody?

OpenD

Thanks for some background.
What with Ricks history of developing carbon fiber guitar technology, the fact that Rainsong installs truss rods on their instruments, that Peavy is (apparently) making some alterations in the guitar design to answer some of the issues folks have raised, it seems there are entities out there with direct CF guitar manufacturing experience who believe improvements can be made to the overall design.

As Jaygits noted in an earlier post, CF is.....

Originally Posted by Jaygits

inherently stiff, yes. Like sitka spruce, for example.

stiff, but not rigid. Otherwise it wouldn't function very well as a guitar, would it? ....

Jay

I would imagine that in the Aircraft industry, as in bicycle manufacturing, CF is valued for it's combination of strength, light weight and flexibility.
I know one of the advantages of CF used for bicycle frame and golf club shaft manufacturing is the amount of "flex" they give. Sometimes it can even be too much.

[JLS]

The Classic series are still listed w/o trussrod. Mine, from 2001, doesn't have one. No problems, whatsoever.