K&K Pickups: why all the love?

[Gypsyblue]

Originally Posted by JLS

Or a Telecaster...

That was just plain mean.

[akafloyd]

Originally Posted by JLS

Or a Telecaster...

They were made for good reasons!!

[TenorAtLarge]

Originally Posted by JLS

Or a Telecaster...

Check my gear list, heh... though true to form, mine has a Fishman Powerbridge in it...

[rogthefrog]

Originally Posted by open-road-matt

I have never met a musician who uses a K&K that is not a part of this forum.

I just saw Andy McKee live. 3 guitars, 4 K&K Pure Minis, 2 D-Tar Solstices, nothing else.

[greggles68]

I have just installed the K&K mini pickup in my new Martin, after trying some models from Baggs. The K&K sounds pretty good and I've just ordered the Trinity system, so I'll add the mic and preamp and hopefully that will be ok.

I think my biggest problem, is that this guitar sounds so good, it only serves to emphasise how bad any pickup system is. The guitar is a Custom Shop D-18 style, with Adirondack top and Sinker Mahogany back/sides.

Previous to owning her, I'd been playing a Martin DC-16GTE for about 8 years, which was a pretty good guitar (to the point where it wasn't until I played the one I bought, that I heard anything significantly better -doing side by side comparisons). The pickup system in it, is the Fishman blend with the mic and piezo, which while definitely a compromise, was as natural as I'd ever heard.

The shop I bought the new one from recommended the Baggs Anthem system as being the most natural, so I bought and installed that. It does sound pretty good, but right away I could hear it was killing the acoustic response of the instrument. There was a loss of low end and volume. After confirming I wasn't crazy, by removing the Element under saddle 'shock absorber', I decided to try the Lyric mic only system. It is ok, but lacks punch. Sounded like a averagely mic'd guitar (which I guess it is). I then thought maybe the iBeam would be a good compromise. It wasn't.

If the guitar was to be only used amplified, I could possibly live with the Anthem system, but it will be mainly used in the studio, so useless on this guitar. I installed the Anthem pickup/piezo in an old Maton 12 string, that I hardly play any more and while the under saddle pickup definitely ate some tone and volume there, it was pretty negligible. I assume it's because it has heavier bracing and is less sensitive in general. I'm a recording engineer by day and people often use my guitars, so it needs to sound great acoustically.

Having sold my old DC-16GTE to a mate, I've able to compare each pickup to the Fishman in it; that I'd been fairly happy with. First thing I noticed after not owning the guitar for a few weeks, was how bad it sounded. It really sounded like a budget guitar along side the new one. Having just compared it to a number of new D-18s, D-28s and others costing more and hearing that the best of those might have been about 5% better (although would improve with age) I knew it wasn't a bad guitar, it just sounded that way next to the new one. Plugged in, it sounded pretty cheap too, although the difference between the amplified and acoustic tone wasn't as great as with the new one.

I discovered that a good friend's cousin is the Australian Martin importer, so asked him for advice and he suggested the K&K. It sounds better than any under saddle piezo I've heard, but still not very natural. I'm hoping that adding the mic will make enough of an improvement that I can live with it. I think that a multi blend system is definitely the way to go. Neither sounds good on it's own, but together get closer to sounding realistic.

By the way, I don't understand people complaining about feedback with an internal mic. With the old Martin, I just used a soundhole stopper. Easy to remove when not needed. To me that's less of a compromise than not using the mic.

I've also realised that the better the guitar sounds acoustically, the more disappointed I'll be when it's amplified.

I'll report again when I install the K&K mic.

[AVTaylor83]

Originally Posted by mwalk

I'm not crazy about the K&K stuff, either. Lots of people love them for their non-invasive install, which I totally understand. After investing a bunch of money in a handcrafted instrument, cutting the thing up doesn't seem right.

However, K&K and fans also boast a "transparent" tone when plugged in. I didn't think it sounded transparent at all. To me transparent means that you should be able to EQ the guitar flat and it should sound like your guitar. Mine sounded mid-rangey and metallic. Direct with no preamp I could use the EQ to get a passable tone, but nothing I was crazy about. I invested in their Mach 3 preamp, which helped quite a bit. It sounded pretty good, but it took a LOT of tweaking.

The best live sound I get is with the Fishman Matrix + Aura Spectrum DI combo. It kicks K&K's butt, imho.

This. I compared my GA7 (Fishman) with my GA5 (K&K) the other day and it was no contest. I've tried the K&K through multiple preamps and even with heavy eq it still lacks to my ears.

I like a bright tone that cuts through and the Fishman with the Aura gives me a much more pleasing sound. The K&K isn't bad, but it has never given me the characteristics I hear from my GA5.

[Gypsyblue]

Well that's what it's all about.

Finding the combo that gives you the characteristics that satisfy you.

What satisfies you might not satisfy me.

And what satisfies me might not satisfy you.

And that's the way it should be.

[ACOUSTICDEWD]

I will chime in and say that the K&K is all I put in all of my instruments. Walk into the best guitar shops in the world (Gruhn, etc) and it is the unanimous choice. Plugging in an acoustic guitar is a necessary evil though and I always prefer the raw sound.

One tip is to COMBINE pickups to achieve your own ultimate sound. So, the K&K plus a soundhole pickup. This may also help feedback

[gluve95]

All of you who are not happy with the K & K should give the Schatten HFN a try. I have been quit impressed so far. For just over a hundred bucks and an easy install that can be taken out and re-sold just as easy if you do not like it it's worth a try. I'm going to add a MiniFlex mic. to mine. I have had K & K Trinity before and I liked it. but I like the Schatten better. Just something to consider if you like to experiment .

[Petty1818]

Originally Posted by ACOUSTICDEWD

I will chime in and say that the K&K is all I put in all of my instruments. Walk into the best guitar shops in the world (Gruhn, etc) and it is the unanimous choice. Plugging in an acoustic guitar is a necessary evil though and I always prefer the raw sound.

One tip is to COMBINE pickups to achieve your own ultimate sound. So, the K&K plus a soundhole pickup. This may also help feedback

I actually don't find that the K&K is recommended all that often. Maybe it's just the places that I shop at but I always compare the K&K to the boutique world. I have been playing in my celtic band for about 8-10 years now so I have come across a lot of acoustic musicians. I am struggling to even think of one that ever mentioned using the K&K pure mini. Even when I did install the K&K in one of my guitars, I had to custom order it in as the shop did not even carry it.

The K&K is a fantastic pickup and I know people will argue against this but it's not the most versatile pickup out there. I think it's recommended far too often. It has so many pros but the few cons that it does have can be deal breakers for some musicians.

[akafloyd]

It seems that K&K pickups have pockets of popularity around shops that recommend them. They were popular around Santa Cruz where Sylvan sells them, while Gryphon, in Palo Alto, sells a lot of LR Baggs pickups. Most musicians I meet just use Fishman if their guitar didn't come with a pickup built in. I'll often recommend that guitar players use whatever their local shop sells and services even in this period of internet availability of pretty much anything. I also believe that any system can be made to sound great. Another thing that many dismiss is that everything between the player and the listener is the player's instrument from the strings to the speakers and it takes some work to get it all to sound good.

[jlipoth]

Originally Posted by akafloyd

...Another thing that many dismiss is that everything between the player and the listener is the player's instrument from the strings to the speakers and it takes some work to get it all to sound good.

I agree. I haven't liked K&K pickups too much until recently. I now understand what the hype is about.... At least to an extent.
- If you have a very good acoustic sound (not plugged in)
- If the pickup is installed correctly
- If you have a preamp and signal chain suited to the pickup
- If your style of playing and setup won't cause feedback (which is partially influenced by the signal chain.)

If all of those things are a go, the K&K is still not perfect, but it's dynamic response is ridiculously close to an unplugged acoustic guitar (closer than all other pickups I've tried). I still prefer 2 source systems. I like using in combination with the LRBaggs element in my J35. I find that blending is the easiest way to keep the "boxy woofing" low end of the K&K at bay.

I will say that K&K is a great pickup... And so is the Bband A2.2 and the LRBaggs Anthem, and the Fishman Aura....

One additional comment: I do feel the K&K pickup has slightly altered acoustic sound/response of my guitar due the additional mass under the bridge, but J35's are built pretty light. I suppose I probably wouldn't notice it on a D28, or a heavier braced guitar (or most store bought guitars).

[Gypsyblue]

Originally Posted by jlipoth

I agree. I haven't liked K&K pickups too much until recently. I now understand what the hype is about.... At least to an extent.
- If you have a very good acoustic sound (not plugged in)
- If the pickup is installed correctly
- If you have a preamp and signal chain suited to the pickup
- If your style of playing and setup won't cause feedback (which is partially influenced by the signal chain.)

If all of those things are a go, the K&K is still not perfect, but it's dynamic response is ridiculously close to an unplugged acoustic guitar (closer than all other pickups I've tried). I still prefer 2 source systems. I like using in combination with the LRBaggs element in my J35. I find that blending is the easiest way to keep the "boxy woofing" low end of the K&K at bay.

I will say that K&K is a great pickup... And so is the Bband A2.2 and the LRBaggs Anthem, and the Fishman Aura....

And, for $99. they're the best buy out there.

[jlipoth]

Originally Posted by Gypsyblue

And, for $99. they're the best buy out there.

Yes, but of all the top options, they are the most feedback prone, and about as sensitive in regards to needing a good signal chain as a fishman passive pickup. So I'd say that they are priced appropriately.