Tube Amps Vs. Solid State….Why?…

[Peter Z]

Originally Posted by HogsNRoses

Back to the loudness question - do manufacturers measure power differently- e.g. RMS versus peak?

For example, I had a 100w SS bass amp. The label said it drew about 30W from the wall. Powerful bass amps are the same. A 1000w bass amp might draw 100-200W. A perpetual motion machine!

My 50W tube amp draws about 150W, IIRC.

A more important factor is speaker efficiency. Eminence used to make a line of acoustic speakers with an efficiency of about 92dB/W. Their electric guitar speakers for an open back tube cabinet run about 98dB/W. It takes four times the power to make up that 6dB, so a 25W RMS tube amp = a 100W RMS acoustic amp. That’s assuming the sealed or ported cabinet in an acoustic amp doesn’t steal even more efficiency.

You might hear someone say the first watt is what matters, and speaker efficiency reveals why.

Yes, they do and there’s much more to that. The results depend on how longs those peaks are and on the frequency, also on the accepted distortion rates and the flatness of the frequency response. All this is very flexible and there are millions of possible combinations.

Everything you wrote in your posts is correct, especially the effect of speaker efficiency. A good speaker in a good enclosure can deliver 100db in one meter distance and that’s quite loud. Louder than our ears can stand for more than 10 minutes or so. But it’s not that easy for developers and manufacturers. They have to deliver products that last at least a bit longer than the warranty period to a competitive price.
If we would be ready to pay more, we’d get better products.

The low power input (30 watts) in relation to high power output (100 watts) is possible. Music signals have lots of very short peaks of 10db and more above the average level. The amps power supply can store some energy in the quiet periods and deliver that additional power on short time peaks.

[HogsNRoses]

Originally Posted by Peter Z

Yes, they do and there’s much more to that. The results depend on how longs those peaks are and on the frequency, also on the accepted distortion rates and the flatness of the frequency response. All this is very flexible and there are millions of possible combinations.

Everything you wrote in your posts is correct, especially the effect of speaker efficiency. A good speaker in a good enclosure can deliver 100db in one meter distance and that’s quite loud. Louder than our ears can stand for more than 10 minutes or so. But it’s not that easy for developers and manufacturers. They have to deliver products that last at least a bit longer than the warranty period to a competitive price.
If we would be ready to pay more, we’d get better products.

I appreciate your response and agree. I wanted to clarify I’m not putting a value judgement on less efficient speakers. They might sound better, and there probably isn’t an exact relationship between quality and efficiency at any price. Unless you happen to enjoy efficient speakers like I do (quietly with my 2W tube amp)[emoji16].

Back to amps: I wonder if there is an explicit different measurement standard for class D (peak) and tube amps (RMS), so that tube amps are louder because they can sustain a loud sound longer.

In summary, my explanation for tube amps sounding louder is, in order:
- speaker pairing
- measurement standard (not verified)
- even harmonic distortion

[Rolph]

Originally Posted by Jim Comeaux

O.K., I understand that some/most/many people believe that tube type amps produce much truer audio amplification than solid state amps do. That is not my point here. What I am asking about is the power levels that these two species of amps spit out. It boggles my mind that a 15 watt tube amp will typically cost many hundreds of dollars more than a similarly rated solid state amp. I can accept that the tube amp design may incorporate much, much more expensive components than a solid state device, but what about the power? My bass practice amp is @ solid state 40 watt operation that I paid about $250 for. An equivalently powered tube amp would have cost me well over $1,200, and what would I get for it? What I am asking is why is it that people will pay thousands of dollars for a tube type amp when there are modeling amps and even pedals that will mimic the performance of ANY amp cabinet with equivalent power on the planet for 1/4 the price. Just where is the application for this? Am I missing something? Is there another piece to this puzzle that I am omitting?

Solid state amps break suddenly for no reason. And you don't know what to replace nor repair. Often, neither do the amp techs. And you call the manufacturer, and they suddenly hang up on you. So you're stuck with a beautiful solid state modeling amp that is SILENT. Maybe that's why.

[Peter Z]

Originally Posted by Rolph

Solid state amps break suddenly for no reason. And you don't know what to replace nor repair. Often, neither do the amp techs. And you call the manufacturer, and they suddenly hang up on you. So you're stuck with a beautiful solid state modeling amp that is SILENT. Maybe that's why.

There’s always a reason if something breaks, we just don’t know it most of the time.
All type of amps can break all of a sudden, especially tube amps with their fragile tubes and hot transformers … or f you forget to connect the speaker.
Transistor amps are as easy to repair as tube amps. And repair works are much safer for the engineer.
Modeling amps are more complicated for an amp doctor, this is true, because it’s not an amp but a computer.

I love tube amps BTW.

[Joe Beamish]

It’s odd that today we have dramatically improved technology, but not better music. Almost the opposite.

[tbtxaz21]

I have a 1970 Dual Showman head with a huge transformer that my amp guy tweaked a bit for me. Through a closed backed 4/12 with v30s it sounds like God. And it is the best pedal platform I’ve ever played through in 44 years. It is also completely impractical.

That said, I can get a good current modeling amp to sound just fine with our band.

But in a studio, I don’t believe there’s a modeling amp made that could come close to the life that comes out of that DS.

Just my $.02.

[Big Band Guitar]

What it really boils down to is:

After you paid 3 or 4 times as much for an amp. it HAS to sound better.

[willymartin]

Originally Posted by rmp

the only solid state amp that comes close to what a tube amp will do for my money is the Fender Tone Masters

I've found the modelers are ok as practice amps, for some recording duties

but they don't really stand on their own in a band with a reasonably heavy stage volume. they get lost in the mix

Try a Quilter Toneblock ....Still using my Vibrolux for most gigs but the Quilter is right there...way more than the tonemasters I tried at gigs. Imo...

As far as the op.... Many products/ss amps sound amazing in the studio or a showroom...live gigs are the true test and why tube amps still reign superior with the vast majority of pros...

[Rickenbacker1]

Try to get a solid state amp repaired . You will get , use it as a boat anchor . The techs tell me they can’t get the schematics to repair solid state equipment . There isn’t a week that goes by on Craigs list someone has a cheap Fishman . Something isn’t working just right . Nobody will repair it . But when I played electric guitar , nothing sounded better then a tube amp. Go solid state save money up front and the quality keeps getting better .

[Big Band Guitar]

Originally Posted by Rickenbacker1

Try to get a solid state amp repaired . You will get , use it as a boat anchor . The techs tell me they can’t get the schematics to repair solid state equipment . There isn’t a week that goes by on Craigs list someone has a cheap Fishman . Something isn’t working just right . Nobody will repair it . But when I played electric guitar , nothing sounded better then a tube amp. Go solid state save money up front and the quality keeps getting better .

Fishman will repair for a flat rate of $50. My loud box mini quit and they replaced it.

I have repaired many solid state amplifiers. Most schematics are available on line and parts are easy to get.

[T.Lime]

just ditch the whole amp thing and move to amp/cab sim pedals. you can switch between SS and tube, you can pick which tubes you want in which cab, you can pick which power amp, which pre amp. You get a much quieter stage, no hauling around kit and 99.9% of listeners will never be able to tell that you are ampless.

[EZYPIKINS]

Originally Posted by Rolph

Solid state amps break suddenly for no reason. And you don't know what to replace nor repair. Often, neither do the amp techs. And you call the manufacturer, and they suddenly hang up on you. So you're stuck with a beautiful solid state modeling amp that is SILENT. Maybe that's why.

If you can't tell the difference between SS, Modeler, and Tube. Good for you. Save your money.

I started playing SS amps in the 80's due to weight. Moving every day, (with no roadies).

Tone suffered immensely. We are talking electric guitars here.

As for acoustic amplification, I run into a mixer. Mixers have no tubes. At least the ones I can afford.

Modeling units, I refuse to even go down that road. I have heard major recording artists that have gone to these Direct Modelers to keep from having to haul amplifiers. Some of my favorites.

I don't go to a live show to hear an emulation...

The recordings are recorded with a Tube amp. I expect the live show to include a tube amp.

There is an interaction with a guitar, amp, speaker, when all played on the same stage, that can't happen with a modeling unit.

I was once at a music store, checking out an old JCM800. Next to me was a guy playing a Line6 Spider. Indecently, Neil does not play one of these.

At one point I cranked the JCM800, and the next to me's mouth dropped open. He couldn't believe what he was hearing.

I said "that Line6 is a modeling amp right?" "Well this is what it's modeling." "And it doesn't do a very good job."

Sure things have come a long way since then. That said, I haven't heard any music coming out of the last 25-30 years that I care to even listen to.

And when all of us older guys, who know why we play tube amps are dead and gone. The generation Z'ers. can model to their little hearts content.

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HAPPINESS IS A WARM TUBE

[leew3]

to the OP: now you've done it!

[T.Lime]

Originally Posted by EZYPIKINS

If you can't tell the difference between SS, Modeler, and Tube. Good for you. Save your money.

I started playing SS amps in the 80's due to weight. Moving every day, (with no roadies).

Tone suffered immensely. We are talking electric guitars here.

As for acoustic amplification, I run into a mixer. Mixers have no tubes. At least the ones I can afford.

Modeling units, I refuse to even go down that road. I have heard major recording artists that have gone to these Direct Modelers to keep from having to haul amplifiers. Some of my favorites.

I don't go to a live show to hear an emulation...

The recordings are recorded with a Tube amp. I expect the live show to include a tube amp.

There is an interaction with a guitar, amp, speaker, when all played on the same stage, that can't happen with a modeling unit.

I was once at a music store, checking out an old JCM800. Next to me was a guy playing a Line6 Spider. Indecently, Neil does not play one of these.

At one point I cranked the JCM800, and the next to me's mouth dropped open. He couldn't believe what he was hearing.

I said "that Line6 is a modeling amp right?" "Well this is what it's modeling." "And it doesn't do a very good job."

Sure things have come a long way since then. That said, I haven't heard any music coming out of the last 25-30 years that I care to even listen to.

And when all of us older guys, who know why we play tube amps are dead and gone. The generation Z'ers. can model to their little hearts content.

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HAPPINESS IS A WARM TUBE

I am one of those older guys........ there is no way you can tell the difference live between a top end amp cab sim system and an amp on a big stage from 20/30 feet. The issue is lack of dynamic control with the sim style set up.. there is never a need to change cab settings so cab sims work really well... changing amp head settings is another matter and for each setting you need a new IR and it is a pain... but your real sound you like is the cab not the amp..... For example if you had a vox cab and head, and switched the the head for a marshall your marshall would sound a lot like a vox but with Marshall controls....... BUT you can dial in any setting into one of 20/30 files that make an IR so for those of us who leave an amp on one setting for a whole gig it works well. My sims can switch cabs and heads with a footswitch . each one with differing tones etc, including an acoustic... all on one board... and yes this is all very subjective and everyone has an opinion.. but over a few beers there is an interesting discussion to be had......... the joy of musicians is that we all want to produce the best sound, but that sound changwes within each one of us.. Peace, love and music...

[zuzu]

Many electric players I see who are fervent members of the tube amp cult, and own and use a (usually expensive) tube amp, plug into it through a vast array of solid state pedals.

I experienced the sound they hope to achieve but generally cannot. That sound played a part in the harm I have done to my hearing playing music. My musical mentor was one of the best musicians I have ever met and a monster guitar player across any genre, acoustic or electric. When he played rock music he did so with a Tele Custom, A Sunn Model T, and the Sunn 4x cabinet loaded with JBLs....with the volume dialed up to 11... The sound he got was comparable to the sound you hear from Who or Mountain records.

This seems to be the sound the tube purists on the rock side of the ledger are after, and they get some excellent sounds with their pedals in the pursuit, but not that sound. It seems to me that particular sound is only had with a high wattage tube amp with a bunch of voltage on the plate, overdriven to the max through numerous high efficiency speakers. I'm not sure anyone plays that loud anymore, I doubt it.