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  #1  
Old 02-28-2023, 01:15 PM
JDB123 JDB123 is offline
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Default Custom build do's and don'ts - where do you start??

Hi friends, got some ?s about commissioning a custom acoustic build.

I recently started a custom electric guitar build with the great Nic Delisle of Island Instrument Mfg. (https://www.island-instruments.com/models/) after a cancellation opened a build slot up.

After playing and owning major brand and boutique acoustics (Taylor, Martin, Santa Cruz) now I've got the custom instrument bug, but I'm wondering where to start with acoustic luthiers and how limiting my price range and build time impatience will be.

I was in talks with a luthier a little under a year ago about a close replication of a Santa Cruz 00 Skye, complete with Adirondack top and cocobolo b/s, at about half the SCGC price. I think the price range was somewhere around $3,500~ and the estimated build time was around 6-8 months. For various reasons I didn't take the plunge, but am now considering whether or not I should have/should reach back out and restart the process.

So my questions are:
1. Is it wrong/advisable to ask a smaller luthier to make essentially a copy of a bigger luthier's instrument?
2. In the sub-$4k range how many luthiers are out there making high quality custom instruments? (recommendations welcome)
3. It seems as if build times keep stretching on and on, is not wanting to wait a year+ for a custom instrument unreasonable?

Thanks in advance, all thoughts and comments appreciated!
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Old 02-28-2023, 01:44 PM
phavriluk phavriluk is offline
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The customer is dealing with an individual, not a factory's employees, and that individual has full control over his work product. The possibilities are endless, and there's no guild rules to honor or break. Laws on commercial behavior, sure.
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Old 02-28-2023, 02:37 PM
Teherie Teherie is offline
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I’ve ordered two custom builds, one from Larrivee and one from Martin so I can’t comment on a smaller builder.

Having said that, I ordered and bought my two customs from a dealer who was also a luthier who had built about 100 classical guitars. From conversations with him, he indicated that he would work with a customer to determine their wants and needs. If a builder is unwilling to work with you, I would thank him/her for their time and move on.
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Old 02-28-2023, 02:45 PM
koolimy koolimy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JDB123 View Post
1. Is it wrong/advisable to ask a smaller luthier to make essentially a copy of a bigger luthier's instrument?
2. In the sub-$4k range how many luthiers are out there making high quality custom instruments? (recommendations welcome)
3. It seems as if build times keep stretching on and on, is not wanting to wait a year+ for a custom instrument unreasonable?
I can't answer 2, but for #1, I think it's not really advisable to ask a smaller luthier to make a copy of a bigger luthier's instrument. Luthiers probably develop designs to best suit their tastes, their building styles, etc. Asking for a builder to just copy another builder's design is almost asking for disappointment, because the luthier is probably not in their comfort zone, and the guitar you receive will ultimately be the luthier's version of SCGC's guitar, not the real thing. If the luthier is up for it then sure, go for it, but be ready to be disappointed because it'll probably have the luthier's signature tone, not Santa Cruz'.

For 3, it probably depends on communication and the luthier's workload. Guitar making takes time and there are some processes that cannot or should not be sped up much, such as finishing. But if the luthier has a relatively small amount of customers 6-8 months seems to be a decent time frame for them to deliver the guitar.

There was a thread about custom guitars that was pretty eye-opening a few days ago, so I would check that out.

I have not ordered a custom guitar but from what I gathered from the threads talking about them, this is what I would do:

1. Establish realistic expectations. You should put some footwork into setting your expectations. That probably means playing the luthier's guitars, listening to youtube videos, maybe talking with other customers about their experience and what went right and what went wrong, etc. Also, there's probably a higher chance that the guitar itself is good rather than great.

2. Understand your needs and wants to a deeper level. You want to be able to articulate your needs and wants to the builder in a clear understandable way. You also probably want to understand what you can compromise on and what you can't. And you don't want to have the scenario where you thought you wanted this feature, but ultimately didn't end up liking that feature.

3. Communicate, communicate, communicate. You are talking with a human who has their own ideas about tone and own way of doing things. You'll have to see if you jive with that person and if you clearly understand what the build process will entail. As said above, you want to be able to articulate your needs and wants in a way the builder can understand. You may need to compromise in some ways, so communicating effectively so you can reach a mutually agreeable middle ground is important.

4. Respect the builder but also hold them accountable. They are a human being. Don't come with constant changes to specs once the build has started. You should probably reach an agreement on frequency/method of communications at the onset of the process, and respect that agreement. But if you receive the guitar and some changeable things, like setup or intonation are unsatisfactory, request the luthier to make good on their work.
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Old 02-28-2023, 03:19 PM
jseth jseth is offline
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I have been privileged to play hand-built acoustic instruments for the past 40+ years, from two different luthiers, Mark Angus and James (and Luke) Goodall.

The very FIRST thing I would suggest would be for you to find a builder who consistently makes guitars that you really love - whether they might be your preferences, so far as body size/shape and various wood combinations. When I "found" James Goodall, I made it a point to play as many of his guitars as I could get my hands on; I was fortunate that James had just moved to Fort Bragg, Ca., and had brought 50-75 of his guitars with him from his Hawaiian shop... so I got to sit down and play various models of his for a good 4 or 5 hours!

A couple of them were close to what I would actually prefer, but EVERY ONE was a really great sounding, playing and looking guitar! When I finally had James and Luke build me a guitar, I knew it would be a terrific instrument!

With Mark Angus, I had to scramble a bit to find a few of his guitars, but the folks who had them were both trusted friends as well as vigorous proponents of his work... in 1979, I really didn't know a whole lot about what makes a great acoustic, but I knew what I DIDN'T want. Again, talking with Mark and working with him, I had a strong sense that I was making the right move.

So, first off, establish your own trust in the builder, both his work and him, personally. You will need to rely on that trust and relationship for a long time; both while the guitar is being constructed and afterwards for all follow-up.

I would NOT recommend asking someone to build me something "just like" some other builder's model. That's not going to go well for you! No matter what, they won't replicate the instrument in question, and the comparison aspect would actually keep you from discovering just how good YOUR guitar turned out.

So far as wood combinations and size/shape go, I'd find one of their models that I liked and go from there. I will say that the less fixated you are on any certain woods, the better off you will be in the long run. Trust the builder! I asked James Goodall about a couple items, and he nixed both of them, politely. He had found The Tree mahogany to be very brittle and difficult to work with, so that was out (for me). And he REALLY didn't like doing Florentine cutaways, so I went with a Venetian style that he employed.

So far as build times? Well, it is what it is... although a strong relationship and level of trust between you and luthier may well result in getting your guitar quicker. The build time for my Goodall began with 10 months being the time... turned out to be closer to 7 months.

By the time I had my Goodall built, James was pretty well known, and his prices were commensurate with his reputation for excellence. Fortunately, I had the disposable income to afford it!

When I first approached Mark Angus, he was still starting out... I worked with him choosing the woods, purposefully eschewing the "Top Grade" woods in order to keep the price low enough for a working musician to afford. No frills, no bling, just a solid "Workingman's" guitar. He built me my #35 for $800, including a hard-shell case, in 1979. At the time, a new Martin would have cost me around $1800...

So, yes, there may very well be some great, yet fledgling luthiers out there who will build you something wonderful for less than $4000... you just have to find them!

Good luck with your quest! I hope this was helpful...
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Old 02-28-2023, 03:58 PM
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colins colins is offline
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I'll chime in on question 3 to say that for me at at least a one year wait is fine. I've waited between one year and seven years for custom guitars and once I have it the wait is forgotten

For a bit more on commissioning custom builds you might like to browse this thread, that a lot of AGFers contributed to a couple of years ago.
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Old 02-28-2023, 09:22 PM
JDB123 JDB123 is offline
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I appreciate all the insight and guidance thus far!

I'm on the younger side for the average AGF user (in my late 20's) so I'm looking to maximize my right moves and minimize my mistakes in search of "The One".

There are so many quality luthiers and builders out there in this golden age of acoustic guitars we're living in. I just don't want to undertake a custom build and be crestfallen by the results, or feel like I could have done things differently/better.
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  #8  
Old 02-28-2023, 10:06 PM
H165 H165 is offline
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Quote:
1. Is it wrong/advisable to ask a smaller luthier to make essentially a copy of a bigger luthier's instrument?
No/Yes. About 65% of all custom builds are based upon a Martin model. Probably 15% based upon Gibsons.
Quote:
3. It seems as if build times keep stretching on and on, is not wanting to wait a year+ for a custom instrument unreasonable?
Shorter build times and lower prices can be achieved by using a less-well-known builder, but the risk is higher (less precedent for proven outcomes). You might start looking for completed custom builds already for sale by dealers or straight from the builders.

I bought mine that way. Got to play it before buying (about a thity-second decision). Although he's world-famous now (for other reasons), I'd never heard of the luthier when I bought the guitar.

Since you have a $4k overall budget, you might want to go to one of the custom luthier shows we see popping up in a few places and check out the instruments at the tables.

Last edited by H165; 02-28-2023 at 10:13 PM.
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Old 02-28-2023, 10:41 PM
The Bard Rocks The Bard Rocks is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JDB123 View Post
...
So my questions are:
1. Is it wrong/advisable to ask a smaller luthier to make essentially a copy of a bigger luthier's instrument?
2. In the sub-$4k range how many luthiers are out there making high quality custom instruments? (recommendations welcome)
3. It seems as if build times keep stretching on and on, is not wanting to wait a year+ for a custom instrument unreasonable?

...
1)This happens all the time. Sometimes folks are delighted and other times, ....less so. It depends upon your expectations and standards. Some luthiers have no problem attempting this and others will have no part of it. If they are really good, they may have a signature sound and aesthetic that they do not want to totally depart from. Is is easier to find someone who can make one "as good as" than to have one "just like".
2) You can find a few that can make you a great guitar at or below your price. It's a much easier task to accomplish if you do not want bling and extras. These tend of course to be builders who are building their reputation, trying to create a demand and establish their business. And there are a very few quite experienced builders who have kept their prices down, either from learning how to work faster or to a less exacting aesthetic standard or, once in a while, from personal choice.
3) Wait times vary. You may find someone willing to start soon and my bet is that this would be a builder comparatively new to the business. The greatest number will have a completed guitar for you within 2 years, and quite a few can accomplish within a year.
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Old 03-01-2023, 09:22 AM
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Andy Bounsall Andy Bounsall is offline
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As one of those who routinely and purposely builds in your target price range, let me offer a couple of thoughts. I think it’s a mistake to ask any luthier to make a copy of someone else’s work. And to do that simply in an attempt to save money…You are surely setting yourself up for disappointment. Each builder develops their own style, their own aesthetic, and their own sound. Find a builder who makes guitars that you love and either you can afford them and are prepared to wait for them, or keep looking for something else.

Personally, I have turned away a number of customers who asked me to build them something “just like” another builders work. One that sticks in my mind was a potential customer who recently inquired about my pricing, wait times, etc. I asked what it was he was interested in, what he liked, etc. He responded by sending a picture of the wood he liked and a video of the sound he was after. Well, after having a good chuckle to myself, I had to politely turn him away. The photo he sent me was a guitar made from The Tree and the video was of someone playing a Michael Greenfield creation.
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Old 03-01-2023, 09:48 AM
s2y s2y is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JDB123 View Post

So my questions are:
1. Is it wrong/advisable to ask a smaller luthier to make essentially a copy of a bigger luthier's instrument?
2. In the sub-$4k range how many luthiers are out there making high quality custom instruments? (recommendations welcome)
3. It seems as if build times keep stretching on and on, is not wanting to wait a year+ for a custom instrument unreasonable?

Thanks in advance, all thoughts and comments appreciated!
1. Depends on the builder. Do they have a signature style and/or is what you want feasible. If I had to guess, about 50-66.6666% of my builds are clones with a modification or two.

2. Depends on what you want and how hard that is in that price range.

3. I'd probably say that most of my builds took a little longer than anticipated. Bob Thompson (acoustic), Rob Allen (bass), GMW (electric guitar [semi-retired]), and Cliff Bordwell (bass) were timely. Some builders are just slow. Some guys really push limits, which takes time. Sometimes they utilize parts fabricated by someone else. It all boils down to what you want, how does that compare to stock instruments, and is it worth the wait+price .
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Old 03-01-2023, 09:51 AM
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warfrat73 warfrat73 is offline
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I don't see any particular problem with having a luthier build a "copy" of another builders work. I don't see how this is really any different than the litany of builders that make copies or variations of Martin and Gibson models. And, lets be honest, the 00 Skye is effectively just a copy of a Martin 00-21/00-28s... I mean, they didn't even change the nomenclature.

I think that where you have to be careful, though, is in expecting your guitar to sound like a Santa Cruz. If you want a Santa Cruz that sounds like a Santa Cruz, buy a Santa Cruz. If you have somebody else build you one to the same specs, and expect it to sound and feel the same as a Santa Cruz, I think you are setting yourself up for disappointment. Doesn't mean another builder's might not sound as good, or even better, but dollars to donuts it'll sound different.

The other advice I'll give, is not to assume too much. There was a recent post by a member that was unsatisfied with his custom shop purchase because he didn't receive the "experience" he wanted (including updates, etc.) or the setup that he would have preferred when the guitar arrived. Don't assume that you are buying into a particular experience or particular set of specs without clearly communicating those expectations... and then hearing what the builder says in response, rather than what you want to hear.
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Old 03-01-2023, 10:15 AM
JDB123 JDB123 is offline
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All that being said I've definitely learned (even before starting this thread) to seek a luthier that makes their own instruments to their own specs, not copies of copies.

I'm not interested in a traditional American-style acoustic copy now, but a guitar employing modern build techniques and aesthetics.

At the end of the day the "experience" doesn't concern me as much as getting a handcrafted and lively, resonant guitar made just for me.
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Old 03-01-2023, 10:27 AM
mcduffnw mcduffnw is offline
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Originally Posted by warfrat73 View Post
I don't see any particular problem with having a luthier build a "copy" of another builders work. I don't see how this is really any different than the litany of builders that make copies or variations of Martin and Gibson models. And, lets be honest, the 00 Skye is effectively just a copy of a Martin 00-21/00-28s... I mean, they didn't even change the nomenclature.

I think that where you have to be careful, though, is in expecting your guitar to sound like a Santa Cruz. If you want a Santa Cruz that sounds like a Santa Cruz, buy a Santa Cruz. If you have somebody else build you one to the same specs, and expect it to sound and feel the same as a Santa Cruz, I think you are setting yourself up for disappointment. Doesn't mean another builder's might not sound as good, or even better, but dollars to donuts it'll sound different.

The other advice I'll give, is not to assume too much. There was a recent post by a member that was unsatisfied with his custom shop purchase because he didn't receive the "experience" he wanted (including updates, etc.) or the setup that he would have preferred when the guitar arrived. Don't assume that you are buying into a particular experience or particular set of specs without clearly communicating those expectations... and then hearing what the builder says in response, rather than what you want to hear.


warfrat73 absolutely NAILS^^^the answer for your questions!!!

I would only add three addendums.

1: Make VERY sure you and the luthier are VERY clear on the tone and dynamic response you are looking for, and that the luthier TRULY feels he can create a guitar with that tone for you. Send him/her recordings, youtube videos,cd's or tell him where he could hear the tone you are after so he can actually physically listen to it...not just try and interpret your description.

2: In the acoustic luthier world, 6 to 8 months build time is actually pretty darn quick, but, delays can sometimes happen. Remember, it's one person hand building the guitar, not a group of craftsmen, and the process takes time for the builder, and since you want this done to the best of the luthiers ability, patience and understanding is your very necessary and reasonable friend.

3. If the price you are looking to stay around is in that $3500 range, give or take a thousand?...you are looking at the bargain basement end of the price range for a custom luthier made guitar. Not saying you can't find it, and have it be a fabulous guitar...you certainly can...but, you might well have to managed your expectations a wee bit on the finished instrument. It could turn out to be a truly amazing guitar, but, it may not turn out to be the glory that a SCGC Eric Skye guitar is. To a certain degree, you do get what you pay for in this world of custom guitars.


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Old 03-01-2023, 10:57 AM
jmagill jmagill is offline
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I've commissioned custom instruments from eight different luthiers and in every case the results have been spectacular.

In my experience, if you want to be happy with your finished guitar, here's my somewhat contrary advice:

1. Do not start with a budget. Put aside for awhile the question of how much you'll pay. Having a ballpark price range is reasonable, but if you start your search with a number you automatically limit your choices. I've always found it much more difficult to find a truly great guitar than it is to find the money to pay for it. Focus on your ideal guitar Tone first; once you find what you want, you'll figure out how to pay for it.

2. Find a builder whose sound really floats your boat. If possible, play multiple instruments from a wide range of builders. A visit to places like Dream Guitars, Carter Vintage/TNAG, Gruhn's, Luthiers Collection, Guitar Gallery, etc. can help you narrow down which guitars have 'The Tone' you're looking for. Remember that video clips only approximate the actual sound of the guitar. Go to guitar shows like Artisan, Woodstock, La Conner, etc. and sample what's there. If this is not possible, poll your friends whose opinions you respect. Prowl the forums like this one, the Unofficial Martin Guitar Forum, Mandolin Cafe, etc. for discussions of popular builders that resonate with your goals.

3. Once you find your builder, start a dialog to make sure you speak the same language. Get to know each other to be sure you both mean the same thing when using terms like 'warm', 'bright', 'dry', 'fat', 'clear', etc. Good communication is critical.

4. Let your builder recommend what will give you the sound you want. They can suggest the woods, body types and options that will make you happy with the results. Don't start with a list of features you've always wanted in a guitar. That will simply tie your builder’s hands and limit your possibilities. You’re paying for their skill and experience, so listen to them.

5. Remember that the top three determinants of the guitar's tone are, in order: 1. the builder, 2. the top wood, 3. everything else. You choose the first one; let your builder guide you through the others. The species of back & sides wood is highly over-rated; it flavors rather than determines the tone, and no matter how pretty, you won't see it when you're playing.

6. Unless you’re certain you’ll keep the guitar forever, don’t request unique features like your name inlaid in the fingerboard, a blue sunburst, etc. that will make it difficult to sell if you decide to move it some day. Stick close to the builder’s standard options.

7. Be patient. Luthier time is different than regular time. You want the guitar as soon as possible, but you also want a great guitar, so give them the time they need; you don't want them to hurry.
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Last edited by jmagill; 03-06-2023 at 11:47 AM.
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