My encounter with a genius: an account of my build with Turnstone Guitar.

[Flat5]

Part 1 - the premise.

I’ve had the bug for luthier made guitars for some time now. After a couple of experiences with a local luthier, I started reading all I could about acoustic guitars building, trying to make sense of all the information out there. I read about woods, techniques, different types of instruments, vintage, etc.
I devoured the book by Ervin Somogyi, and reflected about myself in John Stubbings’ extraordinary account “The devil is in it”. I visited many high end shops (TNAG, The Guitar Gallery, Gruhn, Dream Guitars, and a number of others) and tried a considerable amount of high end instruments. That’s a lot of fun and makes you wish you could print money….

On a whim, I bit the bullet in 2018 and commissioned a MD from my friend Jason Kostal. After receiving it, I took Skype lessons from Michael Watts, one of the greatest acoustic guitarists I’ve ever listened to. I wanted to try and understand what the Kostal could do, so I went to the best to help me make sense of it. Michael not only is a musician in his own league, but also a wonderful human being and a very patient mentor. We went at “The 5 am tango” and a few other pieces, and I learned about so many techniques I had no idea existed…
Conclusion?
if I spent a lifetime trying to put the Kostal to paces, I would still have just used a small portion of what that incredible instrument Jason built for me is capable of.

And, oh, I’ve listened to LOTS of music.
I wish I could say I’m a fairly good player. I’m most definitely not. But playing gives me joy. It’s my beautiful place.

[MThomson]

This is a lovely start to a story. I find my own experiences reflected in parts of it and very much could write your final line about myself. Looking forward to hearing the rest of it. Turnstones are lovely guitars.

[Flat5]

Part 2- The list.

A guitar is a musical instrument, emphasis on “instrument”. As such, a good instrument needs to perform the task it was designed for with accuracy, precision, and reliability. That applies to a knife, a screwdriver, and an acoustic guitar.

So, after researching, experiencing, and buying an instrument from one of the best in business without having a clue on what I was getting myself into, I finally did what was long overdue, and set forth to systematically define what my next instrument had to accomplish.

First: finger picking. That’s the kind of music I play most. So, by the book, a guitar must be responsive, with great dynamic range, intonation, clarity, note separation, evenness of response to the touch across the fingerboard.
All good.

Second: sound. Professional musicians, for the most part, focus on studio and stage performances, where they have an apparatus of audio engineers and tools to get to the desired sound. That’s the reason most of them are quite content with a good Martin and don’t need the exquisite fine tuning that a luthier made instrument can deliver. But I’m no professional musician and my usual audience is myself. So having a particularly good sound from the get go is kinda the whole point.
Two things in particular give me physical pleasure when I play a good instrument: first a big deep bass, with enough control to allow quick passages without muddling the music. I’ve tried guitars that had the sweetest and deepest booming bass, but were quick to lose focus: try Bob Marley in a cathedral, and you get the idea. I want to hear all the notes! The Kostal has this focused and controlled deep huge bass in spades. The other thing that the Kostal has and that gives me goosebumps is the fullness and expression of the mid and high register. The thing screams and sighs like a human being.
I love a quick attack, but also a long sustain. Overtones are OK if they stay in their place.

I did listen to many instruments on YouTube, looking for that sound. Now, I know that YouTube is no substitute for a real in-person audition, and a recording can sound substantially different from live listening, but I more or less acted in the light of experience as guided by intelligence, to quote Nero Wolfe, and came up with three recordings that particularly resonated with me:

https://youtu.be/-Ia2ZQvYkUE McConnell 15 12 fret

https://youtu.be/72tXJrBNrDE Wilborn arum cocobolo

https://youtu.be/w7f1c0frFfs Sands Elena (the tree)

I’ve tried a Brazilian/spruce OM sized beauty by Kathy Wingert which stole my heart. A Matsuda M1 which was just outrageous. And, of course an MDW in beeswing mahogany and German spruce by Jason Kostal which was, to that date, the best guitar I’ve ever played, bar none (oh I should have bought that one, it’s still haunting me).

I’ve also encountered guitars that I didn’t like at all, and I won’t name names. A stunningly ornate and overly expensive instrument I played once had so many overtones that I’d lose track of the fundamental. It disgusted me. Another very famed and sought after builder left me utterly underwhelmed in all the instances (4, to date). I made note of those. Although it’s true that a beautiful looking instrument is an inspiration to the player, I’ve grown rather indifferent to the bells and whistles, and more focused on the actual use and output.


Third: I wanted something different from the MD. A smaller instrument, with a large palette of sounds. Michael Watts showed me the tridimensional space in which every single note can exist, and the three levers that control it: volume, picking angle, and picking position. Levers I understand. I want an instrument with three very sensitive levers.

Also 12 frets to the body. Somogyi in his book discusses at great lengths how the bridge positioning on a 12 frets affects the musical character of a guitar. The Kostal has 14. So this one needs to be 12.

A cutaway, because I can, and because reaching out to the high register on a 12 frets without one is really hard if you’re not a classical guitarist.

A large nut width and a large string width at the saddle, because my mom gave me large hands.

And a sound port, because the public needs to hear it, the public being is mostly me.

And, oh, a beautiful fat compensated saddle (intonation, remember?) I’ve played incredible sounding guitars lacking a compensated saddle. I don’t judge, but I want one on mine.

And think. Think. What else?

Michael says that the scale length is the first thing he ponders. But to this day I’m still confused on what the effect on the sound is supposed to be.

So I went back to my guitars, trying to understand what else was there I was forgetting, and it hit me: neck shape. My hands hurt, I want a neck which can be held in all positions with a minimized effort. So yeah, U shaped on the first 3 frets, then C shaped. Can you specify a neck with multiple shapes?

It turns out you can, and then some…

[iim7V7IM7]

Learning about what you “like” and “do not like” through auditioning builder’s work is an irreplaceable step in my experience when considering commissioning a custom guitar. Guitarists are a heterogeneous bunch. We all play differently, divergent repertoires of music in differing playing situations. One player’s “sublime” can frequently be another’s “meh”. I have seen this time and time again at luthier exhibitions when friends recommend me to “try guitar X at luthier Y’s table”. Therefore, it is essential to either attend these shows or visit one of the select resellers who specialize in luthier made guitars to audition them yourself. A guitar is someone else’s hands will sound different (also a different experience from the player’s position).

The next challenge is being able to articulate your “likes” and “dislikes” with a common language between you and a luthier. Words relating to both tone and even shape/geometry can mean different things to people. One person’s “warm”, “dark”, “bright”, “wet”, “dry” etc. mean different things to different people. You need to make sure that you are both speaking about the same thing (frequently you think that you are, and you are not!). The best luthiers in my experience spend a lot of time here to make sure they and their client are aligned. This is as important as the build itself. Unfortunately, the internet and the plethora of videos are a wholly inadequate medium to describe sound. Much of what you hear is the player’s touch and the artifacts of the recording set up/processing.

Yes, it is not uncommon to not "like" a guitar after auditioning guitars made by some of the “top names” in lutherie. This does not make them “bad” or “over-hyped” guitars, just not the right guitar for you and your playing style. Regarding 12-fret vs. 14-fret to the body guitars, they do sound different. In many cases the bridge is in the exact same location on the soundboard, but the upper bout has grown in length increasing the body volume. The They do have a different timbre that I really enjoy. The choice of a cutaway is personal and should be driven by what you play. If I am playing the end of “All the Things You Are” and I play an Eb9 (x-x-11-12-11-13) or an Ab (x-x-13-13-13-16) I need a cutaway! However, if your music is primarily played in the first five frets why bother? The guitar should not interfere with the player, it should disappear.

[Treenewt]

Thoroughly enjoyed the first two posts...can't wait for the rest of the story, as Paul Harvey used to say.

[Flat5]

Part 3- the luthier.

Whenever I encounter a beautiful instrument, I want to buy it. It’s the threat of financial catastrophe that’s keeping me at bay, for the most part.

There’s a long list of luthiers I would love to commission an instrument from: 13 I can think off the top of my head, plus at least another 20 if I take 5 minutes to ponder, plus a really special one that might be my next commission, and I’m not even considering the archtops, but THAT is for another time.

Some of them are well known, others less. From all of them I’ve seen wonderful inspiring work.

So why Rosie?

Well, I did try a few Turnstones, and sounded very good to me, and very well crafted. She’s in the group.

Then there’s the endorsement by Michael Watts, that’s got to count for something: a “9” on his review on guitar.com. The man knows his stuff and I do value his opinion (I own a Kostal which will stay with me forever!).

Then the backstory about Rosie fascinated me.
I did research her, and read all I could find. And everything (I mean everything!) tells me about a decent human being.

Then she’s a woman. In a world dominated by men, it takes a remarkably talented and assertive woman to be successful.

There’s also the price range, which is still within reach for me (for how long? I have a feeling that Turnstone’s prices will go up inevitably).

I need to digress a bit here.

The economics of a luthier aren’t that great, business-wise.
By all accounts, a guitar build takes 200 to 400 hours. One very productive luthier working 40 hours a week on his own can’t probably do more than 8-10 guitars in one year (some do more, meaning they’re working very long weeks). Take out the expenses (materials, equipment, utilities, shop, etc.) plus the shows and, you know, life… and the bottom line is you are very good if you can make a decent living. Getting rich doesn’t definitely look to be in the cards.

Whatever your opinions might be regarding the price of this craft, my guts tell me two things: work must be paid, and beauty should be rewarded.

That brings me to what are considered to be generally agreed upon negotiation rules with a luthier.

Rule number one is don’t question the price tag.

Rule number two is don’t ask for a discount.

Rule number three is go direct, if you know already what you want.


All that being said, spending the equivalent of a city car or the equivalent of a luxury midsize SUV on a guitar still makes a difference to me. So, yeah, price range was part of my considerations.

Commissioning a guitar is an act of faith, in the end. You can’t see the goods beforehand, you can’t try before you buy.

Therefore, having been macerating long enough, I did the thing I always do when I’ve satisfied the rational part of me. Which is shut up, take the plunge, send the check and never look back.

In the end, Rosie Heydenrych it was.

[rockabilly69]

I'm finding your story enjoyable, and I love that you are having your guitar built to the exact specs that you want. And I LOVE that you find playing gutar to be your Beautuful place

....but this phrase I highly disagree with.

Professional musicians, for the most part, focus on studio and stage performances, where they have an apparatus of audio engineers and tools to get to the desired sound. That’s the reason most of them are quite content with a good Martin and don’t need the exquisite fine tuning that a luthier made instrument can deliver.

What makes you think that professional musicians are just content with their good Martin?

I'm a full time pro musician (have been for 25 years now) and I own a few very good sounding boutique guitars, but for the most part, I enjoy guitars that sound good with my voice, and frankly there are some guitars that work well with my voice which stand out. Gibson J45s, are the best of the lot, and I own vintage and modern. And frankly, I've never heard ANY boutique guitar that works better for me. So the choice has nothing to do with audio tools or engineers. And there are many pros that would agree with me. There are many classic model production guitars that became standards for a reason. I also like a good Martin HD28.

I agree boutique builders, with their knowledge, and sometimes their stash of good woods, may have a better ratio of hit to miss on good sounding guitars, but some production guitars can be magical. After all, many of the designs are tried and tested. One thing though, I think you have to play as many of the production model that you like to find the magic ones, the ones that best represent the classic tone. For that very reason, I rarely buy an acoustic guitar on the internet. Most of the standards that I own I picked of many. And I rarely went looking for them. Most I chanced into, and hearing that sound, I bought on the spot as I knew they would work.

For example, think of the greatest songs of Paul Simon (Guild F30NT), James Taylor (Gibson J50), and Nick Drake (Guild M20 Martin D28 00018), Michael Hedges (1971 Martin D28) the ones they became famous with, and almost all of them were done on production model guitars. Paul Simon mainly uses Martins now, and James Taylor of course the Olsons, but IMO they did their best work with off the shelf production guitars.

And many pros pick a standard guitar because it's a sound that perhaps resonated with them from their personal journey as a musician and their early influences. So I would think most are more than "content" with their Martin.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now all this said, I am excited for you that you are pursuing a custom guitar. I have gone the custom route a few times on electric guitars, and all of my experiences have been enjoyable. Like you, I picked out what I wanted, and for the most part the builders delivered the goods.

I also had a custom electric mandolin built!!!

I will definitely follow this thread for updates.

[elstongunn]

She's about to start on mine soon. It's exciting and also a little nerve-wracking at the same time. When is yours coming?

[Flat5]

Originally Posted by iim7V7IM7

Learning about what you “like” and “do not like” through auditioning builder’s work is an irreplaceable step in my experience when considering commissioning a custom guitar. Guitarists are a heterogeneous bunch. We all play differently, divergent repertoires of music in differing playing situations. One player’s “sublime” can frequently be another’s “meh”. I have seen this time and time again at luthier exhibitions when friends recommend me to “try guitar X at luthier Y’s table”. Therefore, it is essential to either attend these shows or visit one of the select resellers who specialize in luthier made guitars to audition them yourself. A guitar is someone else’s hands will sound different (also a different experience from the player’s position).

The next challenge is being able to articulate your “likes” and “dislikes” with a common language between you and a luthier. Words relating to both tone and even shape/geometry can mean different things to people. One person’s “warm”, “dark”, “bright”, “wet”, “dry” etc. mean different things to different people. You need to make sure that you are both speaking about the same thing (frequently you think that you are, and you are not!). The best luthiers in my experience spend a lot of time here to make sure they and their client are aligned. This is as important as the build itself. Unfortunately, the internet and the plethora of videos are a wholly inadequate medium to describe sound. Much of what you hear is the player’s touch and the artifacts of the recording set up/processing.

Yes, it is not uncommon to not "like" a guitar after auditioning guitars made by some of the “top names” in lutherie. This does not make them “bad” or “over-hyped” guitars, just not the right guitar for you and your playing style. Regarding 12-fret vs. 14-fret to the body guitars, they do sound different. In many cases the bridge is in the exact same location on the soundboard, but the upper bout has grown in length increasing the body volume. The They do have a different timbre that I really enjoy. The choice of a cutaway is personal and should be driven by what you play. If I am playing the end of “All the Things You Are” and I play an Eb9 (x-x-11-12-11-13) or an Ab (x-x-13-13-13-16) I need a cutaway! However, if your music is primarily played in the first five frets why bother? The guitar should not interfere with the player, it should disappear.

I’m 100% with you. This is all very subjective.

[Flat5]

Originally Posted by rockabilly69

I'm finding your story enjoyable, and I love that you are having your guitar built to the exact specs that you want. And I LOVE that you find playing gutar to be your Beautuful place

....but this phrase I highly disagree with.

Professional musicians, for the most part, focus on studio and stage performances, where they have an apparatus of audio engineers and tools to get to the desired sound. That’s the reason most of them are quite content with a good Martin and don’t need the exquisite fine tuning that a luthier made instrument can deliver.

What makes you think that professional musicians are just content with their good Martin?

I'm a full time pro musician (have been for 25 years now) and I own a few very good sounding boutique guitars, but for the most part, I enjoy guitars that sound good with my voice, and frankly there are some guitars that work well with my voice which stand out. Gibson J45s, are the best of the lot, and I own vintage and modern. And frankly, I've never heard ANY boutique guitar that works better for me. So the choice has nothing to do with audio tools or engineers. And there are many pros that would agree with me. There are many classic model production guitars that became standards for a reason. I also like a good Martin HD28.

I agree boutique builders, with their knowledge, and sometimes their stash of good woods, may have a better ratio of hit to miss on good sounding guitars, but some production guitars can be magical. After all, many of the designs are tried and tested. One thing though, I think you have to play as many of the production model that you like to find the magic ones, the ones that best represent the classic tone. For that very reason, I rarely buy an acoustic guitar on the internet. Most of the standards that I own I picked of many. And I rarely went looking for them. Most I chanced into, and hearing that sound, I bought on the spot as I knew they would work.

For example, think of the greatest songs of Paul Simon (Guild F30NT), James Taylor (Gibson J50), and Nick Drake (Guild M20 Martin D28 00018), Michael Hedges (1971 Martin D28) the ones they became famous with, and almost all of them were done on production model guitars. Paul Simon mainly uses Martins now, and James Taylor of course the Olsons, but IMO they did their best work with off the shelf production guitars.

And many pros pick a standard guitar because it's a sound that perhaps resonated with them from their personal journey as a musician and their early influences. So I would think most are more than "content" with their Martin.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now all this said, I am excited for you that you are pursuing a custom guitar. I have gone the custom route a few times on electric guitars, and all of my experiences have been enjoyable. Like you, I picked out what I wanted, and for the most part the builders delivered the goods.

I also had a custom electric mandolin built!!!

I will definitely follow this thread for updates.

What I was trying to convey is that the love for a good instrument is something else than its purpose. I was just reporting the essence of recurring conversations I’ve had with pros. You don’t “need” that kind of guitar to do a job, the same way you don’t need a 10K$ hand-made Japanese knife to slice bread. If you buy one, your slicing experience will be flawless, but it’s about much more than that…

[Flat5]

Originally Posted by elstongunn

She's about to start on mine soon. It's exciting and also a little nerve-wracking at the same time. When is yours coming?

Just wait for it [emoji846]

[Flat5]

Part 4- the commission

That’s where the rubber hits the road: I have a clear idea of what I want and I’m not at all sure I can express it clearly.
I will be stuck with whatever comes out of this process.
So it’s a matter of execution and trust and there’s no plan B.
No pressure.

I started corresponding with Rosie and went through the list of requirements.

I then went to meet her at the shop, had a very long and amiable chat, and I played an instrument she had there (A TD, her take on the Dread, and a terrific one) while she sipped tea and I gulped coffee.

Rosie is a great listener, very patient. She made sure she understood the meaning of all of my requests and had follow-up questions to help me make sense of my idea of guitar when I made things too fuzzy. She was assertive and guided me through her thinking process, explaining the reasons why she made certain choices instead of others.
The whole process was at once thorough, fascinating, informative and really enjoyable.

Here’s an excerpt from that process.

As I mentioned earlier, the base of my thumbs tends to hurt with fatigue (age, yes, and ergonomics: the neck on the Kostal is thin and I found that it’s easier for me to palm a beefier neck). Based on experience on other guitars, and the observation of the relative position of my left hand while playing through the neck, I concluded that I needed a thicker shape on the first three frets, enough to distribute the contact throughout the surface of my palm.
That’s called a “U” shape.
When the position moves down the frets, though, I’m not using all of my palm and the role of my thumb becomes dominant. Again if I could distribute the pressure uniformly, instead on concentrating just on the tip, it’d be easier on my tendons and less fatiguing.
That’s where I needed a “C” shape.
I asked Rosie if that could be accommodated and she said no problem. She also suggested an asymmetrical profile, tapering the overall thickness towards the trebles, in order to facilitate finger access on the fretboard.

Now that’s what I call custom.

Once we exhausted the list, my request to her was produce the best sounding instrument she was capable of.

I would trust her to decide the form factor, the woods, and the appointments.

I know, right? I just enumerated a wide range of requirements and I’m not picking a wood or a form factor?

Wait, hear me out.

Here is my reasoning.
All I have specified is
1- the capabilities of the instrument (what do I want it for),
2- the requirements that I think fit my personal needs (how will I operate it)
3- to some extent, the musical character (what kind and quality of musical expression will it produce)

Now, over the years I have reached a few conclusions as far as acoustic guitar lutherie goes:

a) there is no “right” approach in building an instrument: the acoustic guitar is far too complex a system to have a well defined single official method to produce a good result. Thin back or thick back, X-bracing or lattice, Indian rosewood or the Tree mahogany, I’ve played it all and then some, and the results are all over the place, and apparently unrelated.
Every serious luthier in the business shares best practices for methods and materials, and at the same time have their own personal practices and secret sauces that make them stand apart.
They all say the same thing: you just get better with experience.

b) Experience is that thing when you try something and learn how to get better next time. A guitar might be a step in that endless path to perfection for the luthier, but I’m the one who get stuck with it, so I want to create the best conditions for it to be the best instrument possible.

c) The acoustic guitar being an exceptionally complex physical system, every builder’s experience differs from the others to some extent. Some will stand out in their particular path to become an accomplished crafter. But every path is different, and every one will excel at a particular something.
Every single crafter has an apex in terms of accomplishment, a place where they feel comfortable to express their best work. I simply want to know where that comfort zone is and place myself in the dead center of it.

If that makes sense to you as it does to me, it stands to reason that, in my case, I’d leave Rosie all the necessary freedom for her to establish what the best path forward would be.
Basically, here’s what I want, but I’m going to entrust you with everything else.
Do your thing.

As it turned out, I wasn’t wrong at all…

Rosie was happy to work that way.
The guitar was going to be a TG cutaway (Rosie’s take on a small jumbo). She briefly pondered a TS, the smallest form factor she offers, but then decided that a TG would meet my expectations better.

She had no doubt on the spruce (“you definitely are a spruce person”) for the soundboard, briefly considered going for maple back and sides, but then deliberated Cocobolo was the way to go.

“Interestingly I will advise on a Sycamore neck for you. You mentioned you liked the look of it, but I also feel for your articulated playing style this will tonally serve you very well - it is quick and provides a more immediate and sweet attack compared to Mahogany”.

That told me I was on the right track with this whole commissioning process.

As far as the rest of the spec, all the details were frozen.
Ebony on the fretboard, because that’s the surface I prefer, and ebony accents on the headstock because it looks cool.
A slotted headstock with Scheller tuners. An arm bevel. The rosette would be Rosie’s art deco style with Cocobolo and gold, with a fret marker at 12, plus an end graft to go with it.

“On visuals, the only other thing I was thinking that would look really nice on this guitar is a continuation of the Art Deco theme on the Cocobolo back - so having a upper centre mitred long rectangular box on the back with the engraved pattern inside it. Bordered in Sycamore to match the binding scheme but the engraved pattern remains on Cocobolo wood.”

That all sounded perfect to me.

[dcn]

The adventure continues! Can’t wait for the next chapter.

[Edbuff]

I have a guitar that Rosie built for me several years ago. It was an all English TM model with cedar/bog oak. There is a pic of it on her website. I have worked with several luthiers, Brentrup, Klassen, Andrew White and Rosie. All four were very good experiences. Rosie is very a creative, talented and knowledgable Luthier. She easy to work with and a good communicator. I suspect that her prices will go up as she gains notoriety.

[Flat5]