played with a loud rock band

[zuzu]

I play bass occasionally with a rock and roll outfit. Mostly classic rock, they have been a busy gigging band for over a decade, and have that effortless tightness that can come with that. But, Monday they called on me to play not bass, but acoustic guitar last night. It's a geezer band, all these guys have been doing this since the '70's at least, myself included. But while I have moved through a few genres of music during that time and adapted to and adopted much of the new technology I met along the way, these guys are strictly old school. They fire up big tube amps to make the music, mic the drums, and the mains and monitors are vocals only. The PA is an antique 6 channel powered "mixer", which, I must admit, drives the vocals quite well. One of the wives walks the room during sound check (as she has for over a decade) and they trust her to balance the FOH sound as the drummer acts as soundman from behind the kit. It works, for last night, as many nights before, there is no lack of attendees complimenting us on how great we sound.

I own an Acoustic B15 practice bass amp, and playing my Alvarez with the Sys250 system with B Band piezo through it provides a pretty decent amplified sound, much more natural than any regular guitar amp I own. I leave the guitar EQ completely flat, volume in the middle, run a MXR Super Comp to the amp, and do my EQ with the amp controls. It is plenty loud for open mic, small gigs, etc., and I thought this would be loud enough to hang with these guys, who are very sensitive to the overall band sound, and are one of the few bands I have ever played with who will actually turn down and play quieter when requested or if they feel it needful to get the best sound for the room. Even the drummer!

But the little amp was not loud enough to sound good. I had to get the guitar, comp, and amp all to about 3/4 volume setting to be heard, and when I got there it sounded like absolute garbage. All PA channels were taken but they had a mic in front of me to sing just a couple of songs, so we decided to forego that and mic the amp at the lower volume instead. It worked out ok.

But, if I was in the market for an acoustic guitar amp, (and I may be), I would have to lean toward more power/headroom, instead of super mini weight and mobility...as much as I hate to say that. You probably don't stand much chance of being invited to play with a loud, old school, geezer band, but still, you never know when you may need some real volume. The only way to get it is to move a lot of air.

[L20A]

It sounds like a new Mixer is the real answer.
I can't help you with an amp that will be big enough to hold up against the mixer.
I say, if you can't beat it, join it.

[Mandobart]

It's pretty tough to get an acoustic/electric guitar to be heard in the mix with mic'ed drums, loud electric guitar and thumping electric bass. To try and compete with the volume you sacrifice tone and battle feedback.

It's something that's just not worth it to me, especially as I'm pretty done with boomer dad/grandpa/geezer bands and "classic rock."

It doesn't do any favors for your hearing either - that's one reason the geezers crank it up so high. Not that most ever understood dynamics to begin with....

The band should consider whether the acoustic guitar sound they want is worth adjusting the volume on the other instruments for, or if they can't, play an electric through a clean channel.

[shufflebeat]

Personally I'm a "PA for everything" kinda guy but the politics of PA provision can be a minefield which it might be wise to not go dancing into unless invited and a nice, shiny acoustic amp is always a nice thing to have.

I wouldn't suggest a particular model but rather a list of specs to take to a music shop for a couple of hours fun noisiness.

There's a range of amps from Fishman, Boss, AER, etc. You're probably looking at 100-200(ish) watts but SPL and coverage are more important than wattage.

An acoustic amp that can be mounted on a speaker stand will be more useful than one that pounds the back of your knees and deafens one person in the front row.

[Petty1818]

I am a bit confused. You said they mic the drums, but the mains are only for vocals. What are the drums going through?

Personally, I wouldn't play with them if they were not willing to properly incorporate an acoustic. You need to be going through the mains. Trying to keep up with a loud rock band with an acoustic amplifier will never work well. I would say to them that you need one channel on the "Mixer" and then eq your pickup to suit the band.

[zuzu]

Some wise advice and thanks to all. I should have made clear that this was an experiment for them, they usually have no acoustic guitar, but, after more than a decade, they are seeking to widen their sonic palette and broaden their material somewhat. And they were sensitive to my predicament, figuring out how to overcome the problem while remaining upbeat and not pointing any fingers. And I should have been clearer about the PA as well, the drums do go through there to FOH, but not the monitors.

As far as "classic rock" goes, I have for long now rejected the notion of certain musical forms having some sort of validity over another, that's just no longer part of my musical approach. Creole fiddle tunes are music, big band jazz is music, bluegrass is music, classic rock is music, an orchestral Christmas Cantata is music. Any time I am called upon to play a part in any of those, or any others you can think of, it is my role to bring the best effort I can make for the enjoyment of the listener and the enhancement of their experience. I'm a musician, it's what I do.

The band in question just happens to specialize in classic rock. They are all excellent players and do what they do extremely well. I am well pleased to be included...and don't complain much about the very stout pay I receive at the end of the evening either! They are experienced and popular, able to draw and hold good crowds and thus, are paid excellent fees.

[Guitars44me]

Originally Posted by zuzu

Some wise advice and thanks to all. I should have made clear that this was an experiment for them, they usually have no acoustic guitar, but, after more than a decade, they are seeking to widen their sonic palette and broaden their material somewhat. And they were sensitive to my predicament, figuring out how to overcome the problem while remaining upbeat and not pointing any fingers. And I should have been clearer about the PA as well, the drums do go through there to FOH, but not the monitors.

As far as "classic rock" goes, I have for long now rejected the notion of certain musical forms having some sort of validity over another, that's just no longer part of my musical approach. Creole fiddle tunes are music, big band jazz is music, bluegrass is music, classic rock is music, an orchestral Christmas Cantata is music. Any time I am called upon to play a part in any of those, or any others you can think of, it is my role to bring the best effort I can make for the enjoyment of the listener and the enhancement of their experience. I'm a musician, it's what I do.

The band in question just happens to specialize in classic rock. They are all excellent players and do what they do extremely well. I am well pleased to be included...and don't complain much about the very stout pay I receive at the end of the evening either! They are experienced and popular, able to draw and hold good crowds and thus, are paid excellent fees.

Good for them, and good for YOU! Nice way to look at music, imo…

Wear your ear protection! And rock on

P

[nostatic]

square peg, round hole. If you get a really loud acoustic amp, you'll likely need to do a sound hole plug and mag pickup to avoid feedback. At that point you might as well be playing an electric or maybe a thinline. Depends on why they want acoustic in the mix.

I play bass in a "classic rock" based band but it is highly acoustic and there are no loud guitars. We likewise hold a crowd but different thing than a loud rock band. We do have an electric guitarist sit in (used to record/tour with Clint Black) but he's low volume.

Agree that all music is music, but tossing an acoustic into a loud rock band and not totally rethinking arrangements and mix is kinda problematic. It isn't really a bolt-on modification to me but different strokes, etc. And of course ymmv.

[Petty1818]

Your second post clears some things up for sure. The band sounds like they are willing to make it work so maybe just suggesting going through the pa would do the trick. If not and you are forced to get an amp, maybe look into going the soundhole pickup route or, trying a solid-bodied acoustic like something from Godin. Would be a lot easier to control feedback.

[EZYPIKINS]

I have gone from a 6 channel lunch box type of PA head, carrying only vocals, No Monitors.

To a big powered 12 channel mixer adding in acoustics as acoustic electronics evolved.

Next added subs, started micing drums, to 32 channel Allen&Heath console, foldbacl system with 150' snake 4 monitor mixes, guitars, electric and acoustics, vocals x6-8, bass DI, full drum kit, percussion, 4 keyboards.

Setup and soundcheck got up to 4-5 hours.

Worked my way back to 16 channel mixer, powered mains and monitors, 2 monitor mixes, drum, and front of stage. 1 Sub at drum kit. Kick only in sub. Vocals, and acoustics only in PA and monitors.

Bought my very first acoustic amp, the other day. And don't like it.

Acoustic sounds much better in the PA with good speakers and allot of power.

My JBL's are 1500watts each. If I were to play a band situation again, and had to run my acoustic myself, the PRX815 would be my choice.

[zuzu]

My next amp to test is my old Peavey 15" bass cabinet (fairly new BW speaker) and my old Crown CE-2000 PA amp. That was the cleanest bass rig I ever played, absolutely transparent. A real bear to carry around tho...

[SongwriterFan]

If (when?) you run into feedback issues with the acoustic guitar, try using a Yamaha Silent Guitar . . . it sounds incredibly good, and I doubt Jimi Hendrix could make the thing feed back.

It's what I gig with.

[zuzu]

Originally Posted by zuzu

My next amp to test is my old Peavey 15" bass cabinet (fairly new BW speaker) and my old Crown CE-2000 PA amp. That was the cleanest bass rig I ever played, absolutely transparent. A real bear to carry around tho...

EPILOGUE: I did test this rig and it sounded almost like the unplugged guitar. I left it in my shed and played with a long cord. I could A-B by shutting the shed door and standing, say 15 feet away, where I could hear the guitar acoustically. Then I would open the shed door and hear the amp. Of course, in this scenario there are no cross current frequencies from other instruments, bouncing harmonics, etc.. The only glitch is the Crown couldn't take the wide dynamic range of input from the acoustic and would activate the "clip cut" circuit if I started hard strumming. I was able to control it with the compressor but then it sounded compressed. I always compress a bit, but very lightly, and this was too much.

But, my question was answered: I do, in fact, own a speaker cab that makes really excellent acoustic guitar sound even at pretty high volume...though it is a pain to carry around. I just need to pair it with a clean, transparent amp. I'm thinking I will get a good powered mixer...and a hand truck.

And suspicions confirmed as well: you want to play loud with an acoustic/electric and have it sound natural? However you choose to go about it, you gotta move a lot of air with no distortion.

[nostatic]

fwiw I have times when I double - mostly playing bass and hop on guitar or dobro for a song or two. A good bass rig can sound better than a dedicated acoustic guitar amp depending on the details. SVT cab, probably not. But my Audio Kinesis cabs, absolutely. Add an IR pedal and you can get a good electric/dirt tone as well.

[Brent Hahn]

I absolutely second the bass amp recommendation. I've got a little Ampeg bass practice amp and a much bigger first generation (fuzzy) Fender Rumble with a 15" speaker and they both sound great with my dread and a Baggs M80.