What am I Hearing? (Olson SJ Content)

[EnsgnOfIndustry]

I’ve recently become intrigued by SJ guitars after a slight detour while searching for the right OM Rosewood. I think I may have veered way out of my league with these Olson guitars. I’m drawn to this particular guitar as an example (link below. No affiliation). Most notably, I hear rich ambient overtones with retained clear string to string definition. I further hear a crisp bass response (I believe the second video is standard tuning); all coming through with a light touch. For those in ‘the know’, what am I hearing most? That is, what factor(s) is/are contributing to this particular character? The SJ? The top (I thought it was cedar but it appears to be Engelmann). Is it the BRW? The Olson? The perception of unobtainium of $45k? I ask in part to help guide me toward a less expensive yet similar sounding guitar. Was thinking Collings OM2H with a German top.

https://www.guitargal.com/collection...osewood-guitar
Oh, and this one as well:
https://www.dreamguitars.com/shop/in...ood-cedar-701/

[Doug Young]

I'd suggest trying out lots of guitars. An Olson and a Collings OM sound quite different. Personally, I'm not taken by the sound of those recordings - Olsons can sound better than that (so can Collings). But every guitar builder tends to have their own sound, first of all. The SJ body shape plays a role, the cedar top also is a big part of the Olson signature sound, and contributes to its responsiveness, the overtones and so on. In this case, you also have a good player recorded with a decent mic. There are lots of Olson demos out there, so you can also compare those to get a broader picture.

A Collings will sound more like, well, a Collings, regardless of the woods. Collings are great guitars, but they don't sound like an Olson or vice-versa.

There are tons of SJ-style guitars these days, its a very popular body size/shape, so you might start there. Hit a few guitar stores, or if you prefer custom luthier-built, go to a guitar show, and see how various guitars sound with you playing them in person.

[aschroeder]

Most Olson SJs have a cedar top. But he has made guitars with various types of spruce and I've seen a few with a redwood top. I own an Applegate SJ that is very similar to the Olson. Brian Applegate apprenticed with Jim Olson before going out on his own in 2001.

The main thing that gives the SJ it's distinct tone is how it is braced. It allows the top to vibrate more freely and is extremely dynamic while still having a very full low end. The wider hips on the guitar also help with the fuller sound when compared to most smaller body guitars. As a fingerstyle player it suits my playing style perfectly.

My Applegate SJ has a redwood top that has a bit more "headroom" than cedar. It sounds similar to cedar, but it has a slightly more dynamic response to heavier playing.

If you're looking for a less expensive SJ I would look for an Applegate or possibly Charis guitar. There is also Heinonen SJ guitars (also studied under Jim Olson), but they tend to be a bit higher priced. I highly recommend Applegate as he builds incredible guitars and he's great to work if you're doing a build.

[Doug Young]

Ascroder's list of very Olson-like guitars is spot-on, tho I think there's still a difference with each builder, who add their own voice (which is a good thing). I'd add Ryan, to a certain extent, tho those aren't likely to be cheap. There was a time when Ryan was considered a somewhat lower priced alternative to Olson. The SJ that sort of started the style was the Santa Cruz FS, designed by Jeff Traughott among others, still a nice guitar that comes up used for fairly reasonable prices, at least compared to Olson (Gryphon has a nice one right now for $4500). I have a Charis that I paid $3K for some years ago, tho I don't think I've seen one anywhere close to that in a long time. I don't think any of these guitars will sound exactly like an Olson, but may have the properties you are liking.

[sinistral]

Jim Olson is the Mariano Rivera of luthiers. Mariano had a signature pitch—the fastball cutter—that he threw 90+% of the time. Batters knew it was coming, and they still couldn’t hit it.

In an interview with William Ackerman from many years ago now, Olson lamented a bit that he didn’t get to experiment as much as he’d perhaps like to because people ask him to build guitars “that sound like the one James Taylor plays.” His Sj has become an iconic design of modern lutherie, not unlike a Somogyi modified dreadnought. People like Brian Appelgate and Drew Heinonen build SJs with their own voicing, not unlike the way Somogyi apprentices build guitars (including modified dreadnoughts) in their own voice (as I understand it, Applegate’s and Heinonen’s time with Olson was not as formal as a Somogyi apprenticeship).

I’m not aware of any larger builder that is building a guitar that even remotely resembles an Olson SJ. As Doug mentions, there are any number of solo luthiers who build their take on the SJ, but none is a “knock-off.” Going to a gutar show and demoing guitars is probably the best way to get a flavor for these guitars. Other than Dream Guitars, Guitar Gallery, TNAG, and maybe one or two other shops, you aren’t likely to find many of these guitars under one roof, if any at all.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by EnsgnOfIndustry

I’ve recently become intrigued by SJ guitars after a slight detour while searching for the right OM Rosewood. I think I may have veered way out of my league with these Olson guitars. I’m drawn to this particular guitar as an example (link below. No affiliation). Most notably, I hear rich ambient overtones with retained clear string to string definition. I further hear a crisp bass response (I believe the second video is standard tuning); all coming through with a light touch. For those in ‘the know’, what am I hearing most? That is, what factor(s) is/are contributing to this particular character? The SJ? The top (I thought it was cedar but it appears to be Engelmann). Is it the BRW? The Olson? The perception of unobtainium of $45k? I ask in part to help guide me toward a less expensive yet similar sounding guitar. Was thinking Collings OM2H with a German top.

https://www.guitargal.com/collection...osewood-guitar
Oh, and this one as well:
https://www.dreamguitars.com/shop/in...ood-cedar-701/

Hi EOI…
I own a 30 yr old Olson which is my main guitar (has been all 30 years).

The closest voicing and mimicking of Olson touch, tone, projection were from Brian Applegate's SJ bevy he brought to the 2005 Healdsburg Festival. I spent a couple hours playing the entire small herd of these he brought in different wood combinations. Tempted was I…but I didn't need a second Olson-esque guitar.

Brian's guitars are amazingly similar to my Olson, and my friends' Olsons (I have played over 2 dozen Olson's over the past 3 decades). While they have unique traits with different wood combos, they are all very 'familiar' to my hands and ears when I play them. That familiarity was present while I played Brian's SJ - cutaway and not cutaway.

If I were looking for another I'd go to Brian and ask if he could build me one in the style of those. And his models start at around ½ price of a new Olson (⅓ of many used models).

[Joseph Hanna]

A curve ball here for sure, but in my sonic world, I always thought the older Luthier hand-built Yamaha's had a very Olsen-like sound. Or perhaps the Olsen's have a very Yamaha-like sound. Either which way, the sound bites that the OP provided don't sound all so great to me. Perhaps it's the recording, I dunno know, but I've heard better Olsons for sure, and at 45 grand I'd probably pass.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZAffDC6YXY

[EnsgnOfIndustry]

Beyond helpful! Thank you. What guitar shows are you speaking of? I didn’t think the local SoCal shows were for luthiers; more for guitar sellers? And I’d guess NAMM is more of a big business trade show?

For those that were unimpressed with the samples, what were you hearing that was off or not working for you? Do you have other videos you can share that capture what you think of when you hear SJ? And I totally get microphone placement, the player, and how well the guitar records vs being in the room play a factor.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by EnsgnOfIndustry

Beyond helpful! Thank you. What guitar shows are you speaking of? I didn’t think the local SoCal shows were for luthiers; more for guitar sellers? And I’d guess NAMM is more of a big business trade show?

For those that were unimpressed with the samples, what were you hearing that was off or not working for you? Do you have other videos you can share that capture what you think of when you hear SJ? And I totally get microphone placement, the player, and how well the guitar records vs being in the room play a factor.

Hi EOI…
Healdsburg Festival has been discontinued since 2013, but there are half dozen gatherings/showings by solo builders every year where anywhere 50 or so top end builders show up and display their guitars and allow people to play them. Some of these also have demo concerts. I think all of the builders allow players to play them.

Keep your ear to the ground here on the forum, and ask in this general sub-forum from time to time.

Healdsburg may have been the largest [i](over 100 builders showing up for 3-4 days)[i] including major players doing workshops limited to 25-30 students, and free concerts on the grounds, plus top players demoing the solo builder's guitars in a separate hall.

If you ask a general question about these type of gatherings, I'm sure people will pitch in with names of them, times of year, and general info.

In the Olson vein…

• Charis Guitars (Bill Wise builder) they are solidly in the Olson camp.
• Kevin Ryan - older versions were more more Olson-esque, but his current builds and voicings are amazing and worth consideration, and in that same camp of voicings when built with traditional materials (Rosewood/Cedar, Rosewood/Spruce).
• Langejans Guitars (Del Jangejans) retired - Phil Keaggy has at least one which he used to travel with (Phil is a dedicated Olson SJ player). Del's guitars show up at high end re-seller's shops.
• Applegate Guitars (Brian Applegate - Minneapolis)

Hope this adds to the discussion…

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by EnsgnOfIndustry

For those that were unimpressed with the samples, what were you hearing that was off or not working for you? Do you have other videos you can share that capture what you think of when you hear SJ? And I totally get microphone placement, the player, and how well the guitar records vs being in the room play a factor.

It's just not a very good recording. I'm sure the guitar sounds great in person.

Here's one from Dream Guitars that sounds pretty good to me



And this one's nice, too:



There are tons of examples of Olson's out there, of course. Just listen to James Taylor or acoustic tracks by Phil Keaggy. You can spend hours at Dream Guitar's site, listening to videos, including many Olson's as well as most of the other names mentioned here. Good thing there is that they are mostly a consistent player (usually Al Petteway) and recorded in a reasonably consistent way. I'd use these just as a starting point, tho, to narrow down what you'd like to check out in person. The guitars will sound different when you play them.

As far as guitar shows, the next one up is the Woodstock Invitational, Oct 13: http://www.woodstockinvitational.com/

You just missed the B.I.G. event put on by an AGF member: https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/...d.php?t=666251

Keep in mind, that with an Olson and the types of guitars shown at these events, you're talking about the upper tier, price-wise. Few guitars cost as much as that Olson you posted, but current prices are quite a bit higher than a Collings OM, or anything you will likely see at local guitar shops.

[TBman]

One of our forum sponsors, Pellerin Guitars sells great sounding guitars.

[Ergoetal]

Originally Posted by EnsgnOfIndustry

I’ve recently become intrigued by SJ guitars after a slight detour while searching for the right OM Rosewood. I think I may have veered way out of my league with these Olson guitars. I’m drawn to this particular guitar as an example (link below. No affiliation). Most notably, I hear rich ambient overtones with retained clear string to string definition. I further hear a crisp bass response (I believe the second video is standard tuning); all coming through with a light touch. For those in ‘the know’, what am I hearing most? That is, what factor(s) is/are contributing to this particular character? The SJ? The top (I thought it was cedar but it appears to be Engelmann). Is it the BRW? The Olson? The perception of unobtainium of $45k? I ask in part to help guide me toward a less expensive yet similar sounding guitar. Was thinking Collings OM2H with a German top.

https://www.guitargal.com/collection...osewood-guitar
Oh, and this one as well:
https://www.dreamguitars.com/shop/in...ood-cedar-701/

I say it's the unobtanium factor. I've heard many better sounding guitars (granted it's Youtube).

And frankly, the first guitar doesn't have a "crisp" bass. It's muddy, to my ear.

[SiliconValleySJ]

I strongly concur with many of the suggestions here. I think Drew Heinonen and Brian Applegate are building the closest thing to an Olson SJ right now, and both of them did real apprenticeships and spent lots of time helping Jim Olson build in Jim's shop.

They each differ a tiny bit. Drew uses the same bracing pattern, similar heights in braces and top widths, but he does more actively voice in a way that makes his bracing a tad different. He also builds with a bolt on neck, an extra brace around the top, and a higher standard setup (that can handle strumming too). I think it's still the closest thing, which is why I own one.

Brian's tone changed at some point. I haven't played a ton, but from what I can tell, his high end is slightly different--and I will say that with harder tops (spruce in particular), I like what Brian is building a lot.

Langejans ends up being similar in tone, strangely enough, though the mechanics are very different. Del used a heavy build, heavier finish, but bigger and deeper bodies to get there. It's still nicely and slightly mid emphasized, but the sustain/decay is pretty different. I swear by these for strumming though, so I'm not complaining.

I've played the least Charis guitars among this group and I view this as a more fundamental focused guitar--not saying it lacks overtones or sustain, just a slightly cleaner sound that seems to blend Olson and Langejans, which is not surprisingly Bill Wise's stated goal.

I've also not found Ryan's to be similar, but I've generally played later Ryans that were much more resonant, overtone focused, longer sustains. It's like a Goodall with more richness/sparkle now.

I'll also say that while I own both a Langejans and Heinonen, I've actually not typically loved a lot of Olsons that I've played. However, the one that still haunts me does many years later and it's hands down the single best fingerstyle guitar (https://www.dreamguitars.com/shop/in...od-cedar-1287/) I think I've played (and wished I could've afforded at the time). I played it at Luthier's Collection before it got shipped to Dream and refinished. We all have different likes/tastes and it's a matter of finding what sounds wonderful to you in a particular tonal range.

[colins]

Originally Posted by EnsgnOfIndustry

Beyond helpful! Thank you. What guitar shows are you speaking of? I didn’t think the local SoCal shows were for luthiers; more for guitar sellers? And I’d guess NAMM is more of a big business trade show?

Nothing beats having a few examples in your hands to play. If you are in SoCal, try Luthiers Collection, inland between LA and San Diego. Used Olsons and Ryans in stock as well as dozens of other single-luthier guitars.

And there is a great luthier-built guitar show coming up next year at La Conner in Washington state. Nice place to visit even without the guitars!

[s2y]

I can't say BIG had a lot of Olson "clones" that I'm aware of. The host has one (maybe 2?). I'm always tempted to ask him to play it, although his is made from The Tree and my hands+ears like the rosewood family.

Charis is semi-retired. He's willing to build, but for a fairly steep fee.

I'm tempted to look at ordering an Applegate for next year. I was going back and forth about "standard" and wide nut and bridge spacing. I have a nylon crossover coming in the next month or two that should be able to assist me with that particular spec. Otherwise it's cedar, EIR, piezo, and a cutaway.