12 Fret

[Mandobart]

Three of my guitars have a 12 fret body join. Five are at the 14th. One of the 14 fretters also has a cutaway.

Like most of the things we talk about here, I don't really notice much of a difference in sound or playability, except on those few tunes where I go above the 12th fret.

There are other much bigger differences in my guitars - flat top, cedar top, arch top, Sel-Mac style, resonator, 12 string, Kaman instrument lyracord back, etc. that there's no way for me to isolate the sonic difference solely attributable to 12 fret vs 14 fret body join.

[BigBird]

Played a Boucher 000- HG-52 (ADI top/Rosewood back and sides) I got hooked! Plenty of volume, great neck. Everyone should have a 12 fretter! Perfect couch guitar and with a pick-up it is killer! Boucher JP Cormier edition is 12 fret Cutaway and wow it is nice guitar if you need access to the lower Frets. I have a 12 fret on my list. Should have bought one years ago!!

[sinistral]

Originally Posted by Silly Moustache

Whilst I no longer play Martin six strings, they designed and built arguably the finest flat top designs from the mid/late 1800s until the 1930s.

They determined body sizes, fretboard widths and scale lengths depending on what they thought would be the audience size of a performer (without amplification of course.
The body sizes went from size 2 (Amateur):
1 & 13/16" nut width, 24.5" scale 12" wide lower bout.

to size 000 (Auditorium):
1 & 7/8" nut width, 25.4" scale 15" wide lower bout.

With the Size "0" (Concert) and size "00" (Grand Concert) in between (both with 1 & 7/8" nut widths to 2 & 5/16" string spacing, and with 24.9" scales.

(details taken from my 1924 Martin catalogue).

from 1931 they offered a 12 fret dreadnought, which was a very fine design but commercially unsuccesful, possibly as no-one could think such a large instrument was necessary.

I believe that these developments from the European "classical" guitar, and were most likely designed for fingerstyle playing.

In my humble opinion these were the most visually and tonally well balanced designs to date.

In 1930 they modified the 000 to make the "OM" with thin rhythm neck 14 frets proud -primarily for tenor banjo players in dance bands.
As the 000/OM was unsuccessful, they discontinued it in 1933, and tried the same trick on the Dreadnought which was equally unsuccessful for dance band musicians, but found favour with the burgeoning folk and country players.

These 14 fret designs effectively signalled a "change of use" of the flat top guitar from fingerstyle and melody to rhythm style backing other soloing instruments such as fiddle, banjo and mandolin.

Martin have (finally!) re-introduced 12 fret 012-28 and 0012-28 models (to compete with Eastman? but brands like Collings, Eastman and others have beat them to it.

As my style evolved from simple strumming to more melodic with running bass lines and in chord melodic lines, I found the thin and shallow rhythm necks of 14 fret Martin guitars simply too restricting, and finally found Collings 12 fret dreads and a 000, which provides me with the balance (tonally and physically) to achieve what I need.

The 12 fret designs are more ergonomic in many ways.

A few corrections to your slightly jaundiced view of Martin’s history.

Martin actually built the first 12-fret dreadnought-sized guitar (more like a 12-fret 0000, but more on that later) in 1916 as a commission for a famous Hawaiian band leader and guitarist, Major Kealakai. According to Greig Hutton’s account in his book, which is probably the most reliable, a representative of the Ditson company was visiting the factory and saw the guitar, and convinced Martin to make a run of the guitars for the Ditson company. Martin did so until the Ditson company went bust around 1930. The guitars weren’t big sellers, but rather than discontinue them, Martin began to offer them under their own label, under the moniker “the Drednaught” with an “a” (the internal name for the shape, presumably a play on Dreadnought, the name of the battleship, and “aught,” the naming convention for Martin’s concert-sized guitars—single-aught, double-aught, triple-aught, etc.).

The Drednaught was initially thought of, and marketed as, a bass guitar, as this 1935 catalog shows. It’s true that the Drednaught wasn’t a huge success initially, but arguably a better—and lasting—commercial success than some of Gibson’s bass instruments of the era:




Unlike your version of the history, Martin—as in Frank Henry Martin—was not pushing these guitars on an unwilling public; rather, quite the opposite. Greig Hutton documents many first-hand accounts in letters, etc. how FHM lamented the trend for larger and larger guitars, and for the demand for guitars strung with steel strings. The 0 (which would have been the original 12-fret design at the time) was his favorite. As the sales for the 0 cratered and the 00 dwindled, he advocated for the 00 over larger guitars (strung with gut strings, to boot).

The “Orchestra Model” was originally a single instrument, based on the 000 size. As the 1935 catalog linked above shows, at the time, Martin used the term “Orchestra Model” generically to describe all of the 14-fret versions of their instruments. The 12-fret originals were dubbed “Standard” models, and moved further back in the catalog. You’ll notice that the only Style 28 guitar (other than the Dreadnaught) available in the “Orchestra Model,” 14-fret version was the 000, whereas the Style 18 guitars were available in 14-fret versions in 0, 00 and 000 sizes. Martin was pretty adamant about not besmirching the 0 and 00 guitars, and 14-fret versions of those guitars from the era are exceedingly rare.

Martin only made a dozen or so 12-fret Drednaughts post-Dotson and before the 14-fret conversion. The one guitarist who has arguably put those 12-fret Dreadnaughts on the map is Norman Blake. There has been a (admittedly cult-like) resurgence in that design’s popularity, including Pre-War Guitars Co.’s commemorative Norman Blake guitars.

Two guitars that Martin didn’t make but could have were the 14-fret and 12-fret 0000s (excluding the guitar made for Major Kealakai). Talking about commercial failures, the original M or 0000 design was conceived by David Bromberg, who had several luthiers retop old Martin archtops. One of the guitars that Matt Umanov made for Bromberg became the template for the M guitars. Some decades later, Eric Schoenberg, who had practically single-handedly revived the OM, in collaboration with guitarist Stephan Bruton, got the bright idea to build a 12-fret version of the 0000. Unlike the M, which Martin added to its catalog, Martin has only made 12-fret 0000s as custom runs (e.g., for George Gruhn, etc.). Some people find the 12-fret 0000s to be the best of the bunch.

[K20C]

I don’t know that there’s a benefit. IMO, they sound and feel different than a 14 fret guitar.

[sinistral]

Originally Posted by lowrider

That's probably the best definition.

I have a CS Martin 0000-18 12fret. Martin, historically, never made a 0000 12 fret do unlike the smaller ones, this is made from the 14 fret 0000. The bridge was moved back about a half inch and the body was extended about a half inch. It has a really ''gutsy'' tone.

I never cared for the David Bromberg style 0000 or M-36. To me, it sounds like a 000 with me playing. The 0000 sounds more like a dread. I can play up to the 17th fret on the B and e strings. With practice, I could probably reach more but I haven't had to.



Funny thing, I recently sold it and I missed it as soon as I put it in the box. Luckily the buyer didn't like it. I was thrilled to get it back!

I was thinking that you were nuts to sell that thing, but didn’t want to say anything. See my comment above about 12-fret 0000s—they are an exceptional balance of the presence of the larger guitars with the sweetness of the 12-fret shape. I played one at the Fretboard Summit last year made by Sparky Kramer (who also makes them for Eric Schoenberg). Such a lush sound.

[s2y]

For a very responsive and modern tone, it's tough to beat a solid wood Taylor at this point.

[J Patrick]

Personally, the benefit for me is I find them more comfortable to play…especially on dreads and jumbos….I have had enough examples of each to come to the conclusion that tone and responsiveness has considerably more to do with other factors.

[KevinH]

The Taylor XX2 series is one example of where the 12-fret version has the nut pushed back toward the player and bridge more centrally located on the lower bout. This is seen in the image below, 14-fret on left, 12 on the right.

t.jpg

I bought a Taylor 522 12-fret because having the nut closer to me is more comfortable. It's hard to judge tonal differences because of all the other things that are usually different between a 12-fret and 14-fret you might come across. You can get a rough idea if you can find a 12 and 14 fret 322 in a shop to compare. But even then you have the usual guitar-to-guitar variations that complicate things.

[sinistral]

Originally Posted by KevinH

The Taylor XX2 series is one example of where the 12-fret version has the nut pushed back toward the player and bridge more centrally located on the lower bout. This is seen in the image below, 14-fret on left, 12 on the right.

Attachment 98243

I bought a Taylor 522 12-fret because having the nut closer to me is more comfortable. It's hard to judge tonal differences because of all the other things that are usually different between a 12-fret and 14-fret you might come across. You can get a rough idea if you can find a 12 and 14 fret 322 in a shop to compare. But even then you have the usual guitar-to-guitar variations that complicate things.

That’s a great example—the difference in bridge placement is huge, almost the width of the bridge itself.

[TobyB]

I have a small/parlour Lowden S12 ... I believe that design aims to richen the mid-ranges to compensate for the smaller volume/top. George Lowden generally puts out ideas as a highly skilled and experienced maker, not as sales-talk.
I haven't played it alongside a similar 14-fret ... but it's a lot of sound, and complex, on a very convenient small size next to my desk.

[lowrider]

Originally Posted by sinistral

I was thinking that you were nuts to sell that thing, but didn’t want to say anything. See my comment above about 12-fret 0000s—they are an exceptional balance of the presence of the larger guitars with the sweetness of the 12-fret shape. I played one at the Fretboard Summit last year made by Sparky Kramer (who also makes them for Eric Schoenberg). Such a lush sound.

You're right. I must have been nuts to sell it. When I ordered the D-18, I thought it would make the 0000-18 obsolete. Both have Adirondack tops and custom finishes, and the dread does have a bigger sound, but the 0000 is so cool I was lucky to get it back!

I was getting overloaded with guitars, but now I have my Epi 335 and my Road Series for sale, so it will all balance out.

[joeld]

I'll just throw in that this is my preferred configuration, 12-fret slot-head. I have a Santa Cruz 000 and a Schoenberg/Kramer 0000 (Quartet). I'll eventually have a D12 of some sort, maybe a Santa Cruz or a Martin Authentic 1931 D28 if I ever come across one. I prefer rosewood & long scale myself, which to my ear adds a bit of brightness and harmonics. I just like the way they sound and feel: a bit fatter, richer, and looser. Why wouldn't one want that in a guitar?

Well actually I know the answer. If you want a guitar to spit out immediate & precise notes, or capo a lot, then the 14-fret geometry might help.

[koko61]

I am also very happy with my Loef 12 fret Sloped shoulder and slotted headstock. It is without a doubt my best guitar

[lowrider]

Originally Posted by koko61

I am also very happy with my Loef 12 fret Sloped shoulder and slotted headstock. It is without a doubt my best guitar

Well, that's a beauty, I don't think I ever heard of Loef guitars, where is it from?

[koko61]

There aren't too many reviews on this forum, but the truth is that he is a very good luthier. I have had high-end guitars from Martin, Mcilroy, Luis Guerrero, etc. and this Loef is for me the best of all. The builder is Finnish, and he makes many models of guitars using incredibly beautiful woods, with a fabulous sound.

https://www.loefguitars.fi/