The Acoustic Guitar Forum

Go Back   The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > Acoustic Amplification

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #1  
Old 05-28-2023, 08:59 AM
HogsNRoses HogsNRoses is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2021
Location: United States
Posts: 433
Default Revisiting the Lyric

Hello all:

The HiFi has me sorely tempted, but I have two unicorns for J45 - the saddle is cut deeper than what Iíve seen in previous guitars. After removing the Sonitone from my Studio, an 11mm tall saddle drops right in at the perfect height with an Element. The saddle is too short with no UST. Likewise with the 12 string, except the 12 string has a standard Taylor 12 string saddle dropped right in. Taylor saddles are shorter than 11mm, so the 12 string isnít too unusual.

Trying the Lyric meant shimming the saddle. One can buy ebony shims from Bob Colosi to glue to the bottom of a saddle, but Iím on the other side of the world so I used my own veneer. Itís super hard to tell if removing the Element helped tonally, but maybe the Studio has more resonance.

Here is the six string:



Here is the 12 string:



Aaron Short describes his notch filter strategy to remove a few artifacts in the Lyric sound. Out of curiosity, I took a different approach using the PC-2A, an optical tube compressor pedal modeled on the venerable LA-2A. The compressor might cause feedback on stage at volume, but Iím always looking for a use of compressors and vacuum tubes, and the PC-2A is the first compressor Iíve been able to coax a good sound out of. Here it is with the compression at 12 oíclock:



The song Iím playing is ďWayfaring StrangerĒ using the Carter Scratch technique (I think). Sadly it emphasizes the bass notes. If you want to hear the treble strings, then youíll have to suffer through a different song :-).

Right before this I was trying IR, but my very last iteration before the Lyric ditched the IR. The combo I was most happy with was Element to treble boost (my own circuit) to PC-2A. The compressor squashed out some quack while leaving the response, immediacy, and 3Dness of the Element. The treble boost gave the pickup some air. It was pretty good, but not as good as a microphone. Plus a tube compressor needs a power supply. If I ever play in a band and encounter feedback, Iíll put the Element back in and use the treble boost and PC-2A. Or Iíll try the HiFi with that signal chain.

By the way, I also tried reversing the order of PC-2A and treble boost, but that arrangement didnít kill the quack.
__________________
-------------------------------
Gibson J45 12 string
Gibson J45 Studio Walnut 6 string
Furch D24 SR 12 string
Rickenbacker 330w 6 string
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 05-28-2023, 09:43 AM
SpruceTop SpruceTop is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Rochester, New York
Posts: 12,168
Default

Hogs And Roses: Frankly, your homemade Lyric recordings sound really good compared to what I've heard Lyrics sound like in the past. I had a Lyric about a decade ago and couldn't get it to sound the way I wanted it to sound. There was never enough bass in the mix and it had a hollowness to the tone. I used the LR Baggs Venue DI to try to tame the Lyric but ultimately I gave up on it. Thanks for sharing!
__________________
Martin HD-28 Sunburst/Trance M-VT Phantom
Martin D-18/Ultra Tonic
Adamas I 2087GT-8
Guild F-212XL STD
Huss & Dalton TD-R
Taylor 717e
Taylor 618e
Taylor 614ce
Larrivee D-50M/HiFi
Larrivee D-40R Blue Grass Special/HiFi
Larrivee D-40R Sunburst
Larrivee C-03R Tommy Emmanuel/Trance M-VT Phantom
RainSong BI-DR1000N2
Emerald X20
Yamaha FGX5
Avian Skylark 2A
Republic Duolian/Schatten NR-2
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 05-28-2023, 10:25 AM
HogsNRoses HogsNRoses is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2021
Location: United States
Posts: 433
Default

Thanks, SpruceTop. The recordings are straight into a Focusrite interface, by the way, with no EQ except the presence in the Lyric. I kind of like the 12 string better, and it has a standard depth body. The six is 000 depth, and itís a little boxy. The boxiness goes away in the acoustic amp, though.

Like you, I was less satisfied with them in other guitars. It turns out the Lyric was picking up something I didnít like anyway.
__________________
-------------------------------
Gibson J45 12 string
Gibson J45 Studio Walnut 6 string
Furch D24 SR 12 string
Rickenbacker 330w 6 string
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 05-28-2023, 03:36 PM
Br1ck Br1ck is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: San Jose, Ca
Posts: 6,598
Default

Crystal ball prediction. Baggs will pair the HiFi with a Lyric in a two way ststem. The Anthem is long in the tooth, though a three way adding the HiFi to an Anthem might work really well.

I have a Lyric around here somewhere. On it's own, no low end.
__________________
2007 Martin D 35 Custom
1970 Guild D 35
1965 Epiphone Texan
2011 Santa Cruz D P/W
Pono OP 30 D parlor
Pono OP12-30
Pono MT uke
Goldtone Paul Beard squareneck resophonic
Fluke tenor ukulele
Boatload of home rolled telecasters

"Shut up and play ur guitar" Frank Zappa
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 05-28-2023, 04:25 PM
BlueStarfish BlueStarfish is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Posts: 325
Default

@Br1ck -- the HiFi and Lyric both mount in the very same place (on the bridge, right in front of the bridge pins). So it's not just a question of swapping in the Hifi for the UST Element in the Anthem -- additional cleverness will be needed. I agree that the bass register is the weak point on the Anthem, so would love to see a HiFi / Lyric dual source system but I am not holding my breath for it.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 05-28-2023, 04:35 PM
martingitdave's Avatar
martingitdave martingitdave is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Chicago
Posts: 10,991
Default

I think is sounds great. Did you do anything different with the install? The final result is very appealing.
__________________
"Lift your head and smile at trouble. You'll find happiness someday."
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 05-28-2023, 06:06 PM
mas30066 mas30066 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2023
Posts: 89
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueStarfish View Post
@Br1ck -- the HiFi and Lyric both mount in the very same place (on the bridge, right in front of the bridge pins). So it's not just a question of swapping in the Hifi for the UST Element in the Anthem -- additional cleverness will be needed. I agree that the bass register is the weak point on the Anthem, so would love to see a HiFi / Lyric dual source system but I am not holding my breath for it.
The old B Band UST actually did quite well affixed to the x brace. I could see a Hifi elements mounting on the braces and the Lyric in its standard spot. Donít know if theyíd want to invest in sorting out the install instructions, but the potentialís there. I think the more direct character of the Hifi would help the Lyric and more importantly the absence of the Element in the saddle slot would help the instrument.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 05-28-2023, 06:47 PM
HogsNRoses HogsNRoses is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2021
Location: United States
Posts: 433
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueStarfish View Post
@Br1ck -- the HiFi and Lyric both mount in the very same place (on the bridge, right in front of the bridge pins). So it's not just a question of swapping in the Hifi for the UST Element in the Anthem -- additional cleverness will be needed. I agree that the bass register is the weak point on the Anthem, so would love to see a HiFi / Lyric dual source system but I am not holding my breath for it.

I think the microphone in the Lyric or Anthem is small and in the middle. The plastic wings probably channel the sound and provide a surface for the tape.

Crystal Ball time: Presumably they could stick the mic between the 2 HiFi sensors and build a sound channel around it. The whole thing would be one unit like the Schatten HFN.
__________________
-------------------------------
Gibson J45 12 string
Gibson J45 Studio Walnut 6 string
Furch D24 SR 12 string
Rickenbacker 330w 6 string
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 05-28-2023, 07:06 PM
HogsNRoses HogsNRoses is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2021
Location: United States
Posts: 433
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by martingitdave View Post
I think is sounds great. Did you do anything different with the install? The final result is very appealing.

Thank you! The install is completely standard except I am using my own tape, 3M VHB 4952. I think itís a hair thicker than what Baggs uses, but Iíve run out of theirs. I believe the change in tape doesnít help any.
__________________
-------------------------------
Gibson J45 12 string
Gibson J45 Studio Walnut 6 string
Furch D24 SR 12 string
Rickenbacker 330w 6 string
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 05-29-2023, 08:29 AM
HogsNRoses HogsNRoses is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2021
Location: United States
Posts: 433
Default

I found an old recording of the Lyric in a Furch D24 6 string, an Alpine spruce/rosewood dreadnought. The recording shows the same problem Aaron Short points out in his review - kind of a pinging sound on the D string. In this recording, the Furch has phosphor bronze strings, probably Martin Lifespan 2.0. The E string is as good as one could want, but the D and A strings are thin and metallic. The song is in D with a drone on the D string, so one can really hear it.



The following is the same song. This time the J45 has Martin Kovar strings, which are somewhat loud and metallic in the D string (I still love the Kovar strings overall). Still, one can hear that there is a lot more information in the D and A strings. The fundamental is present and ready to be cleaned up with EQ or compression.



Probably 9 out of 10 people would pick the Furch over the J45. Itís a fantastic sounding guitar to the player and audience. After the Lyric test in the rosewood Furch, I pulled the pickup out and tried other pickups - K&K, JJ, Element, and maybe Anthem. Each of them had that same pinging sound in the D and A strings to a greater or lesser extent. The conclusion I draw is that the rosewood guitar was making the sound you hear in the Lyric. The walnut and mahogany J45s sound different when they are close micíed.

By the way, here is Aaron Shortís review:

https://youtu.be/hB5mzwxlgwM
__________________
-------------------------------
Gibson J45 12 string
Gibson J45 Studio Walnut 6 string
Furch D24 SR 12 string
Rickenbacker 330w 6 string
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 05-29-2023, 11:41 AM
SpruceTop SpruceTop is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Rochester, New York
Posts: 12,168
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HogsNRoses View Post
I found an old recording of the Lyric in a Furch D24 6 string, an Alpine spruce/rosewood dreadnought. The recording shows the same problem Aaron Short points out in his review - kind of a pinging sound on the D string. In this recording, the Furch has phosphor bronze strings, probably Martin Lifespan 2.0. The E string is as good as one could want, but the D and A strings are thin and metallic. The song is in D with a drone on the D string, so one can really hear it.



The following is the same song. This time the J45 has Martin Kovar strings, which are somewhat loud and metallic in the D string (I still love the Kovar strings overall). Still, one can hear that there is a lot more information in the D and A strings. The fundamental is present and ready to be cleaned up with EQ or compression.



Probably 9 out of 10 people would pick the Furch over the J45. It’s a fantastic sounding guitar to the player and audience. After the Lyric test in the rosewood Furch, I pulled the pickup out and tried other pickups - K&K, JJ, Element, and maybe Anthem. Each of them had that same pinging sound in the D and A strings to a greater or lesser extent. The conclusion I draw is that the rosewood guitar was making the sound you hear in the Lyric. The walnut and mahogany J45s sound different when they are close mic’ed.

By the way, here is Aaron Short’s review:

https://youtu.be/hB5mzwxlgwM
Great tone and playing! That D-string pinging is what I term "that string-ping/sitar thing" and it's pretty much a standard noise on a goodly percentage of guitars. It's attributable to a nut not being cut properly and thus not enabling the string to seat well and/or due to the knife-like edge of a compensated bridge saddle at the D-string crossing. "That string-ping/sitar thing" is also quite common on the G-string for the same reasons. Often on a new guitar, you'll have both the D and G strings doing "that string-ping/sitar thing" and that'll really drive you nuts. By the way, "that string-ping/sitar thing" seems to be a standard feature of Taylor guitars, and to channel an old Maytag commercial, the "ping" goes in before the name goes on.

"That string-ping/sitar thing" can be eliminated by recutting (properly touching up) the nut slot(s) of the offending string(s) and filing away the downslope of the saddle behind the D and G strings as the strings head toward the bridge pins. This will give a steeper fall-away angle and more downward pressure from these strings on the front of the saddle instead of having the string-pressure being lessened by the gentler curve of the factory-installed saddle.

What we need is a luthier or two to address this string-pinging annoyance as to what they would recommend doing to eliminate it.
__________________
Martin HD-28 Sunburst/Trance M-VT Phantom
Martin D-18/Ultra Tonic
Adamas I 2087GT-8
Guild F-212XL STD
Huss & Dalton TD-R
Taylor 717e
Taylor 618e
Taylor 614ce
Larrivee D-50M/HiFi
Larrivee D-40R Blue Grass Special/HiFi
Larrivee D-40R Sunburst
Larrivee C-03R Tommy Emmanuel/Trance M-VT Phantom
RainSong BI-DR1000N2
Emerald X20
Yamaha FGX5
Avian Skylark 2A
Republic Duolian/Schatten NR-2

Last edited by SpruceTop; 05-29-2023 at 01:07 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 05-29-2023, 10:04 PM
AeroUSA AeroUSA is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: New York
Posts: 2,103
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpruceTop View Post
Great tone and playing! That D-string pinging is what I term "that string-ping/sitar thing" and it's pretty much a standard noise on a goodly percentage of guitars. It's attributable to a nut not being cut properly and thus not enabling the string to seat well and/or due to the knife-like edge of a compensated bridge saddle at the D-string crossing. "That string-ping/sitar thing" is also quite common on the G-string for the same reasons. Often on a new guitar, you'll have both the D and G strings doing "that string-ping/sitar thing" and that'll really drive you nuts. By the way, "that string-ping/sitar thing" seems to be a standard feature of Taylor guitars, and to channel an old Maytag commercial, the "ping" goes in before the name goes on.

"That string-ping/sitar thing" can be eliminated by recutting (properly touching up) the nut slot(s) of the offending string(s) and filing away the downslope of the saddle behind the D and G strings as the strings head toward the bridge pins. This will give a steeper fall-away angle and more downward pressure from these strings on the front of the saddle instead of having the string-pressure being lessened by the gentler curve of the factory-installed saddle.

What we need is a luthier or two to address this string-pinging annoyance as to what they would recommend doing to eliminate it.
Ah the D-string ping! No one talks about this. It seems to be on many guitars and a pickup or mic mounted under the bridge pins seems to accentuate it. I always notch it out.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 05-30-2023, 09:28 AM
HogsNRoses HogsNRoses is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2021
Location: United States
Posts: 433
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpruceTop View Post
Great tone and playing! That D-string pinging is what I term "that string-ping/sitar thing" and it's pretty much a standard noise on a goodly percentage of guitars. It's attributable to a nut not being cut properly and thus not enabling the string to seat well and/or due to the knife-like edge of a compensated bridge saddle at the D-string crossing. "That string-ping/sitar thing" is also quite common on the G-string for the same reasons. Often on a new guitar, you'll have both the D and G strings doing "that string-ping/sitar thing" and that'll really drive you nuts. By the way, "that string-ping/sitar thing" seems to be a standard feature of Taylor guitars, and to channel an old Maytag commercial, the "ping" goes in before the name goes on.

"That string-ping/sitar thing" can be eliminated by recutting (properly touching up) the nut slot(s) of the offending string(s) and filing away the downslope of the saddle behind the D and G strings as the strings head toward the bridge pins. This will give a steeper fall-away angle and more downward pressure from these strings on the front of the saddle instead of having the string-pressure being lessened by the gentler curve of the factory-installed saddle.

What we need is a luthier or two to address this string-pinging annoyance as to what they would recommend doing to eliminate it.

Thanks, SpruceTop! Super helpful suggestions.
__________________
-------------------------------
Gibson J45 12 string
Gibson J45 Studio Walnut 6 string
Furch D24 SR 12 string
Rickenbacker 330w 6 string
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 05-30-2023, 08:12 PM
Joseph Hanna Joseph Hanna is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Belmont Shore, CA
Posts: 3,116
Default

I did this recording a while ago. I was using the Lyric at gigs. I always loved what it did. This, I'm sure, was direct into Pro Tools.

https://soundcloud.com/joseph-hanna/...social_sharing

https://soundcloud.com/joseph-hanna/...social_sharing

Last edited by Joseph Hanna; 05-30-2023 at 08:20 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 06-04-2023, 02:18 AM
HogsNRoses HogsNRoses is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2021
Location: United States
Posts: 433
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Hanna View Post
I did this recording a while ago. I was using the Lyric at gigs. I always loved what it did. This, I'm sure, was direct into Pro Tools.

https://soundcloud.com/joseph-hanna/...social_sharing

https://soundcloud.com/joseph-hanna/...social_sharing

Those are wonderful recordings, really clear.
__________________
-------------------------------
Gibson J45 12 string
Gibson J45 Studio Walnut 6 string
Furch D24 SR 12 string
Rickenbacker 330w 6 string
Reply With Quote
Reply

  The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > Acoustic Amplification

Thread Tools





All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:56 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2023, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, The Acoustic Guitar Forum
vB Ad Management by =RedTyger=