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  #46  
Old 09-30-2023, 01:15 AM
RogerHaggstrom RogerHaggstrom is online now
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How does a guitar "revert" by not being played? It makes zero sense to me. Do the woods, glue etc. revert? I'm calling baloney on this.
There is no scientific proof yet, and there may never be. Only too many anecdotes of this effect to count.

My personal hypothesis is that the unplayed guitar is reverting to a random state where all the parts of the guitar no longer are synchronized. Adding vibrations to the guitar forces all the parts in the guitar to work in synchronization, decreasing the inner friction and the leakage of energy to heat. Low inner friction makes for longer-lasting sound (sustain) and higher volume (more of the added energy from the strings is used to move parts).
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Last edited by RogerHaggstrom; 09-30-2023 at 01:21 AM.
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  #47  
Old 09-30-2023, 07:29 AM
davidd davidd is offline
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Originally Posted by RogerHaggstrom View Post
There is no scientific proof yet, and there may never be. Only too many anecdotes of this effect to count.

My personal hypothesis is that the unplayed guitar is reverting to a random state where all the parts of the guitar no longer are synchronized. Adding vibrations to the guitar forces all the parts in the guitar to work in synchronization, decreasing the inner friction and the leakage of energy to heat. Low inner friction makes for longer-lasting sound (sustain) and higher volume (more of the added energy from the strings is used to move parts).
I don't want to sound disparaging but that sounds like a nonsensical word salad to me.

I guess we all believe what we want to believe in today's world.
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  #48  
Old 09-30-2023, 07:48 AM
phavriluk phavriluk is offline
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Originally Posted by davidd View Post
I don't want to sound disparaging but that sounds like a nonsensical word salad to me.

I guess we all believe what we want to believe in today's world.
Agree. So much subjectivity is held out as truth by the believers and they refuse to apply logic or analysis.
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  #49  
Old 09-30-2023, 11:04 AM
RogerHaggstrom RogerHaggstrom is online now
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I don't want to sound disparaging but that sounds like a nonsensical word salad to me.

I guess we all believe what we want to believe in today's world.
Someone will perhaps find out why vibrations do what they do. Maybe my hypothesis is correct, maybe not. I will happily accept any explanation better than mine.

In the meantime, I will simply keep on using vibrations on finished restored guitars, getting the same great result every time. Naysayers will lose out.
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  #50  
Old 09-30-2023, 12:55 PM
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tinnitus tinnitus is offline
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Originally Posted by RogerHaggstrom View Post
Vibrating mostly the strings and not the guitar itself with a ToneRite is not effective. Vibrating the top and the whole guitar directly with, for example, a strapped-on Aquarium air pump is quicker and better.

What you get is a bit more volume and a lot of sustain. And, as a side effect, a subjective better overall sound.

Added vibrations are most effective on new instruments and old unplayed instruments.

Vibrations work best on solid wood, plywood is almost unaffected unless given it intense and long treatment.

Any vibrations added to the guitar body will do the same thing, including speakers at high volume.

...

It works. At least it has worked on my first 200 renovations. Something tells me that it will work on number 201 too...
To your well-made points, Roger, I completely agree that vibrating the guitar itself (and not just the strings) should have the most effect. My $16 off-brand jiggler starts on the strings, where it's easier to mount, then it takes just a minute to work its way down to the bridge. That's where it really vibrates the soundboard.

I won't endeavor to endorse or refute that exhaustively documented experiment (on three guitars), linked in post #36. But I will say that every solid top guitar I've had for any length of time over the decades sounded better and better the more it was played. Was that from dropslets of sweat and beer? Perhaps relevant, but using the SWAG method (Simple Wild-__ Guess), I would assume that vibrations in the instrument itself might have a lot more to do with it.

My opinion is totally subjective - just something I've noticed again and again. Nay-sayers are certainly free to dismiss.
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  #51  
Old 09-30-2023, 02:05 PM
AcousticDreams AcousticDreams is offline
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Originally Posted by RogerHaggstrom View Post
There is no scientific proof yet, and there may never be. Only too many anecdotes of this effect to count.

My personal hypothesis is that the unplayed guitar is reverting to a random state where all the parts of the guitar no longer are synchronized. Adding vibrations to the guitar forces all the parts in the guitar to work in synchronization, decreasing the inner friction and the leakage of energy to heat. Low inner friction makes for longer-lasting sound (sustain) and higher volume (more of the added energy from the strings is used to move parts).
Quote:
Originally Posted by davidd View Post
I don't want to sound disparaging but that sounds like a nonsensical word salad to me.

I guess we all believe what we want to believe in today's world.
While I also do not have any scientific evidence to back up why a machine such as a Tonerite or Tone Traveler, could effect an Acoustic guitar, I do have 55 years of working with wood in both a professional and amateur capacity.

Traditional Archer since 1965. One of my past professions was writing archery articles. I grew up shooting super heavy poundage bows. Recurves and longbows ranging from 85 to 100 pounds. In my old age, I am down to pulling around 70 pounds. During my many years as a Trad Archery I have broken many a bow, due to many factors. Traditional bows and longbows have a remote similarity to Acoustic guitars as they are both under some stress when strung.

And as a past custom knife maker, I bought wet wood from all over the world. I would literally spend years drying out the wood properly. I used waveform meters to make sure the moisture content was correct and ready for Stabilization(a monomer/polymer injection). As if it did not reach the correct level it would not accept it.

https://knife10.wixsite.com/victor-s...s/wood-choices

Again, I do not have any answer that can scientifically verify what just such a unit could do. Who knows, as maybe I am fooling myself?

What I can tell you is that wood can be pressed into a position(via steam, or pressure). Wood can retain some sort of memory through being pressed into position. Wood can be Heat tempered(just as steel can) and thus some of its properties changed. There is a big difference in how the wood is dried. (Kiln drying often leaves sap like fluids hardening inside the wood's structure. As where water curing....does not. There are two sides to many a tree. A Tension and Compression side. Each side will react differently from each other. One side is stronger laterally than the other. One side makes a better wood Arrow. One lutheir demonstrated how he cut braces from the very same tree and some braces were strong and stiff...and some weak. Their are so many variables are many more to how wood can react.

With all these variables...there is a chance that vibrations can also add a character to the wood. Just like water drying leaves the wood different than Kiln drying or even Air drying. Water drying of wood was the norm for centuries. But now most guitar makers have to rely on Air drying due to the wait time and costs of water drying. Certainly most of us would agree that air drying is better than Kiln drying for wood sound?

RogerHaggstrom is a big time experimenter with so many guitar restorations under his belt. He has offered us some exciting new theories involving saddle, bridge construction from his tests. For some they will make a difference, and for others not. Same as it is for most things. What works for one person may not work for another. Otherwise...we all would be playing just one brand of guitar.

Science is continually unfolding. Tomorrow may yield new information that takes us even further into the sound of the Acoustic Guitar.
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  #52  
Old 10-01-2023, 08:25 AM
YamaYairi YamaYairi is offline
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So after running my Eastman E20OM-MR-TC on the Tonerite, I noticed a huge improvement. The guitar was much more open and resonant sounding. Originally it sounded like the strings were dead (they were new) and the midrange was prominent. Now the tone is well balanced and the guitar is much more responsive. I used it in a livestream and then put it back on the Tonerite to complete the 7 day treatment, although I am not sure it is necessary. The strings did not go dead after 2 days. I will report back after the full treatment is completed.
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  #53  
Old 10-01-2023, 04:45 PM
johnzias johnzias is offline
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I bought a tonerite about 10 years ago. Used it on my Collings D2H, My SCGC OM, and on my D-28. I believe I noticed perceived slight improvements in each.
However, I stopped using it because I noticed that when I attached it to the strings, it invariably destroyed the set if used for the suggested amount of time.

Has anyone else noticed this?
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  #54  
Old 10-01-2023, 04:55 PM
RogerHaggstrom RogerHaggstrom is online now
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Originally Posted by johnzias View Post
I bought a tonerite about 10 years ago. Used it on my Collings D2H, My SCGC OM, and on my D-28. I believe I noticed perceived slight improvements in each.
However, I stopped using it because I noticed that when I attached it to the strings, it invariably destroyed the set if used for the suggested amount of time.

Has anyone else noticed this?
Yes. That was one of the reasons for me to find something else to vibrate the guitar.
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  #55  
Old 10-01-2023, 05:04 PM
rollypolly rollypolly is offline
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I bought one and used it on a guitar with adi top that was sort of tight and boxy sounding. I noticed a difference with the guitar sounding somewhat more open and airy after several days of tonerite. But, in the end the guitar didn’t sound as good as I wanted so I sold it and found one that was more pleasing to my ear. That’s my experience with tonerite. Doubt I’ll use it again.
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  #56  
Old 10-01-2023, 05:28 PM
johnzias johnzias is offline
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I just bought a D-28 Authentic Natural, (aged was $1500 more), and I've taken to putting it on a stand in front of my stereo speakers and blasting Cream's Spoonful from Wheels of Fire. Seems to vibrate the top much better than the Tonerite, lol!
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  #57  
Old 10-06-2023, 09:19 PM
YamaYairi YamaYairi is offline
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Well, I ran the Tonerite on one guitar and my own experimental system on another guitar for 7 days. Both guitars showed improvement, but I would say the guitar on the Tonerite had vast improvement. The tone is now warmer, with more bass, and the guitar is louder and more responsive.
The guitar I had on my experimental system had a warmer tone but I didn't notice more bass or increase in volume, but it was already very good in those respects.
Regarding my experimental system:
I found that Low E is about 80.9Hz. I put a small speaker on top of the guitar just below the bridge, with a piece of pipe insulation between the speaker and top. I drove it with a sine wave from my function generator at 80.9Hz at 10V RMS. It excites the low E and the top.
The guitar on the Tonerite was a 2023 Eastman E20OM-MR-TC and the guitar on my experimental system was a 2021 Martin CEO-7 that already sounded pretty good.
Both guitars had new Elixir Nanoweb 80/20 Bronze .012 - .053 strings on them and the strings did not go dead.
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  #58  
Old 10-07-2023, 08:01 AM
Malcolm Kindnes Malcolm Kindnes is offline
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A friend recently lent me a tonerite and I tried it for several days on two different guitars, an almost new 00 and a 43 year old larger bodied guitar. I didn't notice any difference in either guitar after the treatment.
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  #59  
Old 10-07-2023, 12:06 PM
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I'm just wondering how much of the perceived change can be attributed to the ToneRited strings.

For the treatment to be validated, one needs to test with a fresh set of strings and, after the treatment, install another new set of strings to remove the strings as a variable.

Tommy
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  #60  
Old 10-07-2023, 04:48 PM
YamaYairi YamaYairi is offline
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Originally Posted by tommieboy View Post
I'm just wondering how much of the perceived change can be attributed to the ToneRited strings.

For the treatment to be validated, one needs to test with a fresh set of strings and, after the treatment, install another new set of strings to remove the strings as a variable.

Tommy
I'll replace them when they go dead and report back here. You may have to wait 6 months.
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