Achieving tube warmth with vst's , and...

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by kurth

doug...it was in one of my recent threads , one or two of the experts saying exactly this, and it wasn't challenged to my recollection....ie that a great mic won't be perceptible until a room is properly treated.

My point was just that a "great mic" doesn't mean "tube mic" or vice versa. You could have great FET mics, and lousy tube mics. I don't think it's the tubes that make the room matter.

As an aside, I'm also not sure I entirely agree with the general premise - I agree you'll likely appreciate a good mic, or any better gear, if everything else is up to the same standard, including the room acoustics - you're only as good as your weakest link. But I use really good mics in so-so rooms all the time, and they sound just fine to me, and I can hear the difference, however subtle, between various mics, as long as the room isn't a total disaster. It's a bit of the same argument people make about needing to be a good guitar player to appreciate (or deserve) a good guitar. I think it's not that simple or absolute. But a bit of a digression from your topic.

A recording studio might be better for executing the best spec'd audio recording, however they aren't the best for writing material.

Ah, sorry, I thought, since you were talking about mics, that you were talking about recording. Of course, write anywhere that you enjoy writing. When it's time to record, if you want it to sound its best, that's when you need a good sounding recording space, gear, etc.

[kurth]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

My point was just that a "great mic" doesn't mean "tube mic" or vice versa. You could have great FET mics, and lousy tube mics. I don't think it's the tubes that make the room matter.

As an aside, I'm also not sure I entirely agree with the general premise - I agree you'll likely appreciate a good mic, or any better gear, if everything else is up to the same standard, including the room acoustics - you're only as good as your weakest link. But I use really good mics in so-so rooms all the time, and they sound just fine to me, and I can hear the difference, however subtle, between various mics, as long as the room isn't a total disaster. It's a bit of the same argument people make about needing to be a good guitar player to appreciate (or deserve) a good guitar. I think it's not that simple or absolute. But a bit of a digression from your topic.



Ah, sorry, I thought, since you were talking about mics, that you were talking about recording. Of course, write anywhere that you enjoy writing. When it's time to record, if you want it to sound its best, that's when you need a good sounding recording space, gear, etc.

thanks doug...I appreciate all your wisdom, however for me, those two spaces must be the same. I don't know how songwriters have adapted to having an instant recording vehicle always available, but for me...it's meant going from purely notebooks , which I've accumulated about 6 inches worth) to being able to change whole passages in seconds, and even rewrite songs on the spot. So recording just added another layer to the songwriting process. Still have to do the notebook phase, and now I even formalize the lyrics in a legal binder....but I leave the facing page for rewrites done while recording. Also....I'm one of those that lean towards ...you're as good as your best trait, rather than your weakest link. Kinda of a glass is halfempty or halffull analogy. thanks again k

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by kurth

thanks doug...I appreciate all your wisdom, however for me, those two spaces must be the same. I don't know how songwriters have adapted to having an instant recording vehicle always available, but for me...it's meant going from purely notebooks , which I've accumulated about 6 inches worth) to being able to change whole passages in seconds, and even rewrite songs on the spot. So recording just added another layer to the songwriting process. Still have to do the notebook phase, and now I even formalize the lyrics in a legal binder....but I leave the facing page for rewrites done while recording. Also....I'm one of those that lean towards ...you're as good as your best trait, rather than your weakest link. Kinda of a glass is halfempty or halffull analogy. thanks again k

OK, it's helpful to understand your goals. I'm not sure the fine details of recording, like what plugins will add tube warmth, mic choice, room acoustics, etc, are especially useful in your case, since you have an overriding priority.

[kurth]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

OK, it's helpful to understand your goals. I'm not sure the fine details of recording, like what plugins will add tube warmth, mic choice, room acoustics, etc, are especially useful in your case, since you have an overriding priority.

....of course they are. I'm still making a recording and I want to present the material in the best possible light. who knows...maybe i'll be the only representative. In a hundred years someone could chance upon a song and the author would want that song to be presented in the best possible scenario, right ? All the fine details are highly relevant in this regard....within the limits of the songwriter. Gary Webb made some nice recordings too. What would you say to Neil young who records in a barn ? As i said earlier....give me a big space in a log cabin ! https://kdvr.com/news/entertainment/...y-horse-album/

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by kurth

.. What would you say to Neil young who records in a barn ? As i said earlier....give me a big space in a log cabin ! https://kdvr.com/news/entertainment/...y-horse-album/

I think a real, operating barn is very possibly a quite decent space to record, at least for certain styles of music. Also note that your article says Neil "rebuilt" the barn. Neil has the resources to have acousticians help him design a space if he wants. Looking and feeling like a barn and having good acoustics, even professionally designed acoustics, are not mutually exclusive. Based on the article, my guess is that Neil built a custom studio, with the aesthetics of a barn. Why not? Sounds cool, I'd take one of those.

I think something that's getting lost here is that no one is saying you need to record in a sterile room coated in foam. You just (ideally) need adequate acoustics. Some spaces sound good as-is. Some people can record just fine in their living room, or their basement, or their barn. Maybe not world-class acoustics, but "good enough" depending on your goals. Other rooms need some help. Your concern that a very good mic might reveal too much of your room suggests that maybe you think your space doesn't sound so good. Or it might be just the sound you're looking for. It's really up to you, and your taste. And to some extent, you just have to try it and see what happens.

My suggestion would be to start recording. You seem to know exactly what you want, so general suggestions here are kind of pointless. Perhaps when you have some recordings, if there's a specific issue you encounter where you don't care for the result, you can post the example and get targeted advice.

[kurth]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

I think a real, operating barn is very possibly a quite decent space to record, at least for certain styles of music. Also note that your article says Neil "rebuilt" the barn. Neil has the resources to have acousticians help him design a space if he wants. Looking and feeling like a barn and having good acoustics, even professionally designed acoustics, are not mutually exclusive. Based on the article, my guess is that Neil built a custom studio, with the aesthetics of a barn. Why not? Sounds cool, I'd take one of those.

I think something that's getting lost here is that no one is saying you need to record in a sterile room coated in foam. You just (ideally) need adequate acoustics. Some spaces sound good as-is. Some people can record just fine in their living room, or their basement, or their barn. Maybe not world-class acoustics, but "good enough" depending on your goals. Other rooms need some help. Your concern that a very good mic might reveal too much of your room suggests that maybe you think your space doesn't sound so good. Or it might be just the sound you're looking for. It's really up to you, and your taste. And to some extent, you just have to try it and see what happens.

My suggestion would be to start recording. You seem to know exactly what you want, so general suggestions here are kind of pointless. Perhaps when you have some recordings, if there's a specific issue you encounter where you don't care for the result, you can post the example and get targeted advice.

thanks Doug. Soon I'll have some stuff up. It's not that I ever said I was concerned about room noise....I simply quoted a few local opinions who expressed the idea that tube mics might be superfluous until you work in a treated space. Also I'm leaning to the direction that that might be true if you're only recording as well...cause you can do so much with the signal inside the box. But there's always a cost compared to getting that signal closer to the source. I.e....whether to think about a rode ntk or not. Also there's a photo of Young playing inside his barn in that article. Looked like a rustic log cabin with zero treatment to me. Cracks between the logs and all. Of course he's doing his lespaul thing and not his martin thing...which makes a world of difference. Maybe he's got some gobos stacked in the corner for that. Really, that's what I probably will be told I need as well jaja. Man you wouldn't believe the noise I have to endure. Imagine above a video shop on the lower east side. Mexico wins for noise. I'd have to build a room inside an room, inside another room. But only rarely have I had to torpedo takes because a roaring kamakazi 4x4 passes. thanks again

[srick]

This thread about adding warmth to VSTs really went off the rails.This thread is closed.

Rick
AGF Moderator