Are there some real studies

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by whvick

We have a lot of Great subjective opinions on brand, tonewoods, and models, and how they affect sound and playability.
Has anyone done a true double blind study on a large number of guitars to get some data?
You could take good players, both finger pickers and strummers, and blindfold them, So they would not be influenced by price and brand etc. They could give opinions for data on playability and sound.
Then take an audience and blindfold them to grade the sound from different guitars being played.
You would have to work out the details on having more than one guitarist play.
Regardless, I think that properly done such a study could give some revealing data.
So again, is such data out there, or do we just continue to trust our own subjective opinion?

The answer is in your question "give their opinion"
The only revealing data that would be accomplished is you might possibly get data on a consensus of "opinion", which is still totally subjective. And thus you would have a compilation of data on "subjective personal opinion" in other words arguably you have a net Zero gain from just "trusting our own subjective opinion"



Unfortunately for example the posted quote "scientific" studies linked, have two major flaws in methodology the big one is the inescapable variable of "different performances",,,,, compounded by the variable of personal opinion based on the variable of different performances.

Put differently : IMO the beauty and art of music and tonal quality is in how it "feels" to the individual and while it may be qualifiable I do not think it is quantifiable

[mcduffnw]

Originally Posted by whvick

That is great about the violins. I would like to see a similar, but expanded study of guitars

Check out the "Leonardo Guitar Research Project"


duff
Be A Player...Not A Polisher

[dspoel]

The number of variables is large which would make a scientic comparison difficult. But given enough data it should be possible using laymen recording their guitars under somewhat controlled form and a machine learning analysis. Would be really cool to see whether different woods can be distinguished.

Maybe the big guitar makers would like to sponsor it. Or not.

[whvick]

Originally Posted by colder

I'm not sure who would pay for all this. The manufacturers of guitar things are not going to fund a study that might show the fine distinctions they make and up-charge for in build and materials have no benefit

Agreed....

[whvick]

I know even my wife can tell the difference in my D-15 hog vs my 414 ovangkol, from the dining room to the kitchen. But those are different makers, models, and different woods. Tonight I will test her on the 414 vs a similar rw spruce from Indonesia which is a little thicker and poorer built.

[zmf]

Originally Posted by whvick

So again, is such data out there, or do we just continue to trust our own subjective opinion?

It is, of course, all subjective opinion.

At least to my satisfaction, enough studies have been done right here on this forum. Regardless of the price of any two guitars, there are players who praise brands/models that I've played and know that I'm not particularly fond of them. Likewise, others aren't fond of guitars that I might think are fantastic.

Often we're talking about a brand's signature tone, so it's not simply a question of differences in individual guitars.

I suppose a study describing the properties of various guitars might be useful, but trying to get objective data on something like "best bang for the buck" is tougher.

[tadol]

I think a study to determine the best beer for a given price would be far less problematic, and actually useful -

[ocarolan]

If you really are interested in the "differences" woods can make, this paper is the one to read -

http://www.psych.lancs.ac.uk/hearing...ar-experiment/

Lancaster University, Roger Bucknall (Fylde guitars) -

"Six handmade Fylde Guitars guitars built on commission from our lab. All the six guitars were based on the same model (Falstaff model), and were built to the same dimensional and material specifications, except for the back and side plates. The woods used for the back and side plates of the six guitars were: Brazilian Rosewood, Honduras Mahogany, Indian Rosewood, Maple, Sapele, and Claro Walnut. These six woods cover a wide range of prestige among players, availability, and price."

Read it if you dare....

Keith

[Silly Moustache]

Originally Posted by whvick

We have a lot of Great subjective opinions on brand, tonewoods, and models, and how they affect sound and playability.
Has anyone done a true double blind study on a large number of guitars to get some data?
You could take good players, both finger pickers and strummers, and blindfold them, So they would not be influenced by price and brand etc. They could give opinions for data on playability and sound.
Then take an audience and blindfold them to grade the sound from different guitars being played.
You would have to work out the details on having more than one guitarist play.
Regardless, I think that properly done such a study could give some revealing data.
So again, is such data out there, or do we just continue to trust our own subjective opinion?

The answer to your complex question is NO> and there never will be.
There are a truckload (Ford or GM) of assumptions in your perfectly reasonable question, but remember that guitars are built by businesses and sold to businesses to sell 'em to us. Businesses wouldn't want to subject their products to another to be foud wanting. That is what happens on the open market by us, the end users who make a choice - some informed some less so.
I read this forum every morning over breakfast, and again in the eveings when my wife is watching something I really don't want to watch.

I see endless threads about buying different products but they ar mostly the standard issue stuff - Martin dreads and OMS, Gibson Jumbos and Taylors (that I don't know about) and Eastmans mostly.

There are some threads about more esoteric or individual instruments but largely, like in most sectors the end user buys what he is told to buy.

What is "great" for you will be "feh" for me.
What is cheap for you may be way too much for me.
Etc.

Some will pay for endangered tonewoods and some won't (I won't)
Some pay for brand names and some don't.

and, your method doesn't take into account that fact that a new guitar is the worst it will ever sound as they open up and that it down to the player/environment, and that from many of the common makers you wil find one which works well and the next which doesn't.

Too many variables, to calculate any absolute judgements , plus of course as someone once said
"A man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest".

[Malcolm Kindnes]

From the university of Lancashire / Fylde study:

"Conclusions
Overall our results indicate the species of wood used for the back and sides of a steel-string acoustic guitar has at best a marginal impact on its acoustic properties and perceived sound, and that cheaper and sustainable woods can be used as substitutes of expensive and endangered woods without loss of sound quality. This page presented only a quick summary of the main results of the study. The paper presents the results of additional tests and more in depth discussions of the results shown here. The Leonardo Guitar Research Project, a project that is completely independent of our own study, has so far reached similar conclusions."

Of course, I can already guess that a lot of people won't want to accept this and will go on paying a ridiculous upcharge for the latest exotic wood combination, only to sell the guitar at a huge loss sometime in the future.

[gitarro]

Originally Posted by ocarolan

If you really are interested in the "differences" woods can make, this paper is the one to read -

http://www.psych.lancs.ac.uk/hearing...ar-experiment/

Lancaster University, Roger Bucknall (Fylde guitars) -

"Six handmade Fylde Guitars guitars built on commission from our lab. All the six guitars were based on the same model (Falstaff model), and were built to the same dimensional and material specifications, except for the back and side plates. The woods used for the back and side plates of the six guitars were: Brazilian Rosewood, Honduras Mahogany, Indian Rosewood, Maple, Sapele, and Claro Walnut. These six woods cover a wide range of prestige among players, availability, and price."

Read it if you dare....

Keith

Does that mean that the guitarists surveyed were unable to distinguish between a mahogany fylde and a rosewood one - as in they had no idea purely from the sound whether they were playing one or the other?

[cdkrugjr]

Originally Posted by gitarro

Does that mean that the guitarists surveyed were unable to distinguish between a mahogany fylde and a rosewood one - as in they had no idea purely from the sound whether they were playing one or the other?

Reminds me of the Classical luthier in the 19th C who demonstrated to his own satisfaction that only the top mattered by building a guitar body out of paper mache and varying only the top.

Might be an improvement over the sub-thousand laminate body <redacted> that look dreadful and sound worse, "But they're <redacted>..."

And a Squire Bullet is a Fender, right?

[Tony Burns]

Its best we don't waste our time with such nonsense
all I know is what I have makes me happy and I enjoy
playing them -and to me they sound great -
Its not that I don't care , but some folks really get carried away with this
GAS thing -which (IMO) may of been started by a guitar company just to
sell more guitars we don't need -at least that's my story and I'm sticking to it !

Peace !

[ruby50]

Never going to be anything definitive. This one is very cool and with recordings, let's you be the judge. I know your computer speakers are the size of penny, but still, close your eyes the second time through and see what you think.

http://www.leonardo-guitar-research.com

Ed

[wguitar]

Interesting idea for folks who enjoy (or even require) detailed research for purchasing decisions, but as a practical matter is of limited value to most. IMHO, it could also create a degree of "paralysis by analysis" which makes the buying decision even further. Personally, I tend to gather a fair amount of information, seek informed opinions & perspectives, play as many guitars as I can, and all while shopping around for something in my price range (usually end up spending a bit more than I planned on). All this being said, I would be very interested in seeing the results of the type of study identified by the OP. Nothing, however, beats playing guitars and judging for yourself. One thing I've noticed in myself is that the price tag on a guitar greatly influencing my expectations of that guitar -- which skews any attempt to do an apples-to-apples comparison with lower or higher priced guitars. In any event, Great thread -- Thanks to the OP for getting it started!