Best acoustic guitar for Elliott Smith tone?

[romancandle]

Does anybody have info on the FG3 and FG5. First off what is the difference? Is it worth getting the electronics? Are these guitars based off of the FG-180?

[EverettWilliams]

With acoustics, his sound was less about the guitar and more about the style of playing. While I do think the ES-330 is pretty key to his electric tone, I don’t think you need an old Yamaha to sound like him and I don’t think buying an old Yamaha will make you sound like him.

On the pre-XO records, the double tracking is spot on. Basically, you’re trying to record virtually the same thing twice and pan it hard. I usually use the same mic, mic placement, preamp settings, and instrument. Record the first track. Then pan that to one side. Set up a new track and pan that to the other side. This way you’ll clearly hear your double tracking as it goes. It may take practice, but I find it very intuitive and suspect you’ll get there quickly. Vocals are the same deal.

Before he got the dreamworks money, he was really, really lo fi in his sound and approach, so the enemy (if you’re going for the old sound) is making things too bright and shimmery. If you want the later sound, rent a good studio because he was using all of the good stuff.

Good luck!

[romancandle]

It's no surprise that we are getting into the fact that he was very talented and his studio techniques because his guitar while special in its own way was just a basic folk guitar. I'm probably in the minority when I say I wish he didn't do double tracking as much as he did. I really like what he did on the short film with Lucky 3 when it is just him, his voice and guitar playing into a mic. I think a lot of good points have been brought up in this thread so thanks guys!

[EverettWilliams]

If you want Yamaha, I’d look for the old red label Japanese made ones from the 70s. They are often uncommonly good. An old roommate has one and it’s just great. Was dirt cheap too. I haven’t played the particular models that you’re discussing, but the only Yamahas that have actually appealed to me have been those old Japanese made ones. From my experience, the new (and even non- red label old ones) ones don’t hold a candle.

Whatever it is, I’d suggest spruce and mahogany for his tone - dry and warm are key.

Good luck.

[romancandle]

Originally Posted by EverettWilliams

If you want Yamaha, I’d look for the old red label Japanese made ones from the 70s. They are often uncommonly good. An old roommate has one and it’s just great. Was dirt cheap too. I haven’t played the particular models that you’re discussing, but the only Yamahas that have actually appealed to me have been those old Japanese made ones. From my experience, the new (and even non- red label old ones) ones don’t hold a candle.

Whatever it is, I’d suggest spruce and mahogany for his tone - dry and warm are key.

Good luck.

My all Mahogany M-20 and Cedar top S6 are different beasts for sure.

[atticus1019]

Check out the Strymon Decco pedal. I use it for that double tracked sound live and it sounds perfect. You can also add a little saturation for just a touch of bite.

[romancandle]

Originally Posted by atticus1019

Check out the Strymon Decco pedal. I use it for that double tracked sound live and it sounds perfect. You can also add a little saturation for just a touch of bite.

I actually might buy that instead.

[romancandle]

I wanted some E.S. mojo so I bought a Fishman Rare Earth Humbucking pickup. I owned the Lawrence A-300 before so we'll see how this compares.

[Gjimmy]

Also, he tuned down a full step most of the time too, so that helps get some of his sound. I don't think he used a pick very often, if ever.

I love playing some of his songs... many are a bit too complicated for me to get down. What a talent he was.

[romancandle]

Originally Posted by Gjimmy

Also, he tuned down a full step most of the time too, so that helps get some of his sound. I don't think he used a pick very often, if ever.

I love playing some of his songs... many are a bit too complicated for me to get down. What a talent he was.

I usually use a pick for strumming.

[atticus1019]

Originally Posted by romancandle

I actually might buy that instead.

It is such a great pedal, it definitely cuts some of the bright top end of an acoustic, but I have an eq in line to shape the tone I want. Worth the expense for me to achieve the effect I’m looking for. Also makes a killer overdrive if you play electric.

[GuestIN]

I knew Elliott, and I’ve spoken on other forums as to people wondering what he was using to get his doubled vocal sound. The answer to Elliott’s guitar sound and his vocal sound were one in the same: it was just Elliott. He was a tremendous talent who put in the years honing and nurturing his talent. Everything recognizable about his guitar playing had 100% to do with his playing and 0% to do with the guitar he was playing. That might not be a popular thing to say here, I don’t know. But I will say that whether he was playing his cheap (Taiwanese; not even Nippon) Red Label FG-180 or whether he was playing the J-50 later in his career, it was always Elliott making the guitar sound better, and never was it the guitar making Elliott sound better.

Don’t worry about finding the guitar that will give you Elliott’s sound. It doesn’t exist. You obviously love his music. Just learn to play every song. It’s a labor of love, but it will get you there. You’ll get that seamless fluidity between strumming and fingerpicking that Wizz Jones, Richard Thompson, John Martyn, and Elliott did so well. Find any guitar that’s enjoyable to play and just play it. There is nothing substantial about what type of guitar Elliott used. Look at Nick Drake. People very close to him - to this day - can’t decide whether he was playing an M-20 or a D-28 on “Pink Moon.” And my opinion is, “who cares?” I know it’s Nick Drake one bar into any of his songs. Elliott was the same way.

Hope I’m not being discouraging. I loved and continue to love and miss Elliott dearly. And by proxy, I love anyone who wants to dig deeper into Elliott’s bag of tricks. But the ace up his sleeve was always the insane amount of years he spent practicing. REALLY practicing. If you get to where you can smoothly play “Everything Means Nothing to Me” on guitar (it’s hard enough on piano), then you’ve got your Ph.D. (Elliott could do it. I couldn’t come close!)

Okay, sorry if you made it this far. Good luck and learn every song. At that point, you won’t sound like Elliott, you’ll truly sound like you. That’s the Elliott approach: find music you love, and learn it all forwards, backwards and into the ground. Don’t worry too much about the guitar. Hope that statement doesn’t get me kicked off this forum on my first post.

Best,

I.A. Newhart

[xilef regnu]

Originally Posted by I. Newhart

I knew Elliott, and I’ve spoken on other forums as to people wondering what he was using to get his doubled vocal sound. The answer to Elliott’s guitar sound and his vocal sound were one in the same: it was just Elliott. He was a tremendous talent who put in the years honing and nurturing his talent. Everything recognizable about his guitar playing had 100% to do with his playing and 0% to do with the guitar he was playing. That might not be a popular thing to say here, I don’t know. But I will say that whether he was playing his cheap (Taiwanese; not even Nippon) Red Label FG-180 or whether he was playing the J-50 later in his career, it was always Elliott making the guitar sound better, and never was it the guitar making Elliott sound better.

Don’t worry about finding the guitar that will give you Elliott’s sound. It doesn’t exist. You obviously love his music. Just learn to play every song. It’s a labor of love, but it will get you there. You’ll get that seamless fluidity between strumming and fingerpicking that Wizz Jones, Richard Thompson, John Martyn, and Elliott did so well. Find any guitar that’s enjoyable to play and just play it. There is nothing substantial about what type of guitar Elliott used. Look at Nick Drake. People very close to him - to this day - can’t decide whether he was playing an M-20 or a D-28 on “Pink Moon.” And my opinion is, “who cares?” I know it’s Nick Drake one bar into any of his songs. Elliott was the same way.

Hope I’m not being discouraging. I loved and continue to love and miss Elliott dearly. And by proxy, I love anyone who wants to dig deeper into Elliott’s bag of tricks. But the ace up his sleeve was always the insane amount of years he spent practicing. REALLY practicing. If you get to where you can smoothly play “Everything Means Nothing to Me” on guitar (it’s hard enough on piano), then you’ve got your Ph.D. (Elliott could do it. I couldn’t come close!)

Okay, sorry if you made it this far. Good luck and learn every song. At that point, you won’t sound like Elliott, you’ll truly sound like you. That’s the Elliott approach: find music you love, and learn it all forwards, backwards and into the ground. Don’t worry too much about the guitar. Hope that statement doesn’t get me kicked off this forum on my first post.

Best,

I.A. Newhart

Informative and fascinating thread.

[ManyMartinMan]

Since chasing someone else's tone can be a very time consuming and costly (and frequently impossible) journey, I would get a great guitar and chase the romancandle tone. Let someone chase you.

[hairpuller]

No doubt the sound is in the fingers, not the guitar.....BUT, (and this is a huge but) I must say that no matter how I try, the sound that comes out of my beat up Yamaha will never come close to what comes out of my 000-18.

scott