The Acoustic Guitar Forum

Go Back   The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > Other Musical Instruments

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #1  
Old 05-17-2014, 08:47 PM
tbeltrans tbeltrans is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Twin Cities
Posts: 8,085
Default experiment

Today, I traded a guitar that I have not used since I got my McPherson, for a "high end" ukulele. The ukulele is made by Ko'olau in Hawaii: http://koolauukulele.com/image-slide-two/

This uke sells for approx $4500 due to the various upcharges from its $3150 base price. It also has an LR Baggs pickup that seems very similar to the one in my McPherson. It came with a hard shell case, so the whole thing looks like a miniature guitar.

Anyway, the owner of Willie's (Nate) where I did the trade played absolutely wonderful fingerstyle versions of various standards on it. Listening to several decent quality ukes (Collings and other brands with Hawaiian names), this one by far sounded the best to my ears. It has none of that midrange ring that I don't care for in other ukes. It is all koa, but apparently very select quality wood. It certainly looks beautiful and is quite easy to play.

My experiment is that I intend to get NO books or DVDs on playing ukuelele. I have decided this is a sort of fresh start in which I want to teach myself to play exclusively by ear and using what I know of diatonic theory, working out my own fingerstyle arrangements as I go. Nate showed me that the ukulele is very intuitive for this sort of playing, spending just a few minutes showing me what he does to support the melody, which is also by ear. He said that if I spend time doing this, when I go back to guitar, it will be from a much more creative position.

I have been realizing that I sort of screwed up with the guitar by relying on books and DVDs rather than thinking and working it out for myself. I took Tom Paladanius' ear course last September and that showed me that I did "go wrong" somewhere along the way.

Early on with the guitar, I spent quite a bit of time learning material off recordings, but over time I got away from that and began to rely on books and DVDs and cluttering up my mind with a lot of study of theory that never really translated into playing songs. I have been making efforts to get back on track as time permits, but with my work hours, it is difficult to find that time and energy, so I am pretty much waiting until I retire at the end of June to really get back to it. I think when I do, I will start with the uke and that "clean slate". Between now and then, I will spend what time I can picking out melodies on the uke. This isn't a talent, so much as a developed skill that gets better the more we do it. It is relative pitch, which we all can develop.

Today, when I got the uke home, I did spend some time working out the melody and some accompaniment for "Over the Rainbow", "Happy Birthday", and a few others, so at least I know I still have the ear for it. The uke does seem simpler for this sort of activity and it has an interesting tuning (Good Cowboys Eat Apples - GCEA), with the G being a high tuned note and the C low, and the E and A successively higher.

This particular ukulele sounds particularly good. I ran out of time today, but tomorrow I want to hear how it sounds through the AER Compact 60. I think it will be a great combination.

Tony
__________________
“The guitar is a wonderful thing which is understood by few.”
— Franz Schubert

"Alexa, where's my stuff?"
- Anxiously waiting...
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 05-18-2014, 06:31 AM
tbeltrans tbeltrans is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Twin Cities
Posts: 8,085
Default

Well, good to see at least people are looking at my post even if it garners no discussion. Personally, I would like to read more of the things others might be doing to explore new (to them, even if others have done it many times) musical terrain. In my post, I probably should have emphasized the "experiment" more than the uke. Anyway, for those who read it, I sincerely hope it gets people to think, not so much about playing uke, but getting out of ruts.

Tony
__________________
“The guitar is a wonderful thing which is understood by few.”
— Franz Schubert

"Alexa, where's my stuff?"
- Anxiously waiting...
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 05-18-2014, 06:38 AM
mc1 mc1 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: nova scotia
Posts: 14,146
Default

sounds like a good learning opportunity. i can't help but wonder how books and dvd's and theory made you go "wrong". i don't see those things as being at odds to using your ear as well, unless they completely took the place of using your ears.

the uke tuning is also pretty similar to the guitar's top 4 strings capoed at the 5th fret, except for the higher tuned g string. hopefully that information won't interfere with your experiment. keep us in the loop.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 05-18-2014, 06:58 AM
tbeltrans tbeltrans is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Twin Cities
Posts: 8,085
Default

Thanks mc1. I just now realized that I probably should have posted this in the "other string instruments" sub-forum, since I now see that uke material is being discussed there.

As for "going wrong", yes, for me, when I went down the theory road, I went overboard for quite some time studying all manner of theory that really had little to do with the music I was playing. After a while, I became more dependent on books and DVDs to learn material than on my own ear. It is (in my opinion) a slippery slope. I suspect that this is where there is real value in having a "live" teacher and regular lessons at least periodically. A teacher can keep a person on track, assuming one has selected a teacher that is compatible with your goals and learning style.

I did get back on track when I got involved with Robert Conti's chord melody method, and then with Tom Paldanius' play by ear course. But still, for me, when I have the guitar in hand, I tend to think too much. I think spending some time away from the guitar while teaching myself the uke will allow me to flush some of that out of my system when I get back to the guitar.

Most ukes that I have heard have (to my ear) an annoying mid-range twang. The one I got does not. It seems richer and more balanced, while sounding like a ukulele. So I know I will be able to get truly satisfying results from my efforts. I am doing my note finding exercise on the uke to become familiar with its layout. I have described it here in other posts, and it will work for any instrument, any tuning, and does not require any equipment other than the instrument itself. Other than that, all I am doing is picking out melodies for now. When I get really comfortable with that, I will start experimenting with adding hints of harmony to it. My goal in this is to be able to QUICKLY play on demand, any song I can hum as a pleasing fingerstyle "arrangement" on the ukulele. Then, I don't need to memorize anything, since I hear music around me all the time (i.e. somebody is listening to a radio, stereo, or I am listening to MP3s) so there is an endless source of material to hum and then play on the uke. When I go back to the guitar, I intend to take this practice with me, with a fresh approach to that instrument too.

When I watch videos of guys such as Tommy Emmanuel or Chet Atkins or other players of that caliber, or watch the DVDs from Robert Conti, these guys all insist the action is on the fretboard and not in some book. I was just watching a couple of Youtube videos of Tommy E this morning where he was talking about how he sits and figures stuff out on the fretboard and is always finding something new. He hears something or thinks of something and goes to his guitar to work it out. That is where I want to be 100% of the time. It is difficult to break through years of self-conditioning on the guitar for me (maybe others here don't have that problem or desire to take this path and so can't relate), so starting fresh with an instrument I have never played before, but is similar enough to guitar in some ways for me to apply my knowledge of diatonic theory and my ear to teach myself, is one way to do that while picking up yet another instrument that adds another dimension to my playing.

Tony
__________________
“The guitar is a wonderful thing which is understood by few.”
— Franz Schubert

"Alexa, where's my stuff?"
- Anxiously waiting...
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 05-18-2014, 07:44 AM
JonPR JonPR is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 6,450
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tbeltrans View Post
Well, good to see at least people are looking at my post even if it garners no discussion.
Sorry, I saw something about a ukelele priced at $4500 and I automatically switched off...
__________________
"There is a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in." - Leonard Cohen.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 05-18-2014, 07:47 AM
EllaMom EllaMom is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Eastern WA
Posts: 743
Default Thanks for starting this discussion

I'm really intrigued by this discussion, for a couple of reasons:

1. My cousin hand built a ukulele for his sister, which his niece (his sister's daughter) then gave to her mom on Mother's Day. The mom is having a blast! She learned guitar as a kid, but didn't keep up with it. The ukulele is lighting her fire, so to speak.

2. I am a relative newbie to guitar. And I'm one of those who really REALLY wants to figure out the fretboard. But I'm trying to do so 'in theory' more than 'in practice.' Oh, don't get me wrong, I practice every day. But I'm obsessed with figure out WHY rather than HOW. Funny....my mom always told me the first two words out of my mouth were "No!" and "Why?"

Anyway, as I started down this path of learning guitar, from the get-go I've always said I want to learn fingerstyle. No interest in strumming chords, and no interest in singing. Now you've got me wondering whether I should have started with a ukulele, since it sounds like it's much easier to 'find' the melody on it compared to a guitar.

For now, I'll stick with guitar, but I have to admit....you've got me wondering!

Thanks.
__________________
Carol


"We are music fingered by the gods." ~ Mark Nepo
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 05-18-2014, 09:41 AM
Ryler Ryler is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,643
Default

Coincidental that I came across this post today. Just yesterday as I was looking on line for ukes, I thought, "I want to learn this instrument differently than guitar. No visuals. All ears." Like you, I feel that I would be better served to ditch what I typically rely on. Unlike you, I rely on tab quite a bit. I have a tough time wanting to wean off of it. And it seems more achievable starting from scratch on a different instrument. I"ll let you know if I follow through.
__________________
Larrivee OO-05
Larrivee OM-03R
Eastman AC308
Pono OO-20
Pono OP-30DC
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 05-18-2014, 10:10 AM
M19's Avatar
M19 M19 is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Land of 10,000 Lakes
Posts: 8,551
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tbeltrans View Post
Thanks mc1. I just now realized that I probably should have posted this in the "other string instruments" sub-forum, since I now see that uke material is being discussed there.

<snip>

Tony
It's done.
__________________
Marty
Twin Cities AGF Group on FB
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 05-18-2014, 02:16 PM
Earl49 Earl49 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Idaho
Posts: 10,982
Default

Tony, I have been playing guitar for 45 years, first learning cowboy chords from Dad as a kid. Then in the 80's I took up fingerstyle fairly seriously. I started learning Piedmont blues and ragtime tunes by using tab books and Stefan Grossman records, and later from Homespun tapes. I took up ukulele after a music camp in Hawaii where I was shown the similarities to guitar. Low G uke is basically the same thing as guitar, but tuned up a fifth. I mostly play it strummed, but I am also fingerpicking it quite a bit, based on the patterns and some licks that I already know from guitar. People always smile when I do "Stairway to Heaven" on the uke.

But lately, I have been trying to learn your way and become a more complete player. Ukulele has a lot of potential to break you out the rut, since the familiar note patterns and chord shapes are different -- really more dissimilar than truly different, but not exactly the same, causing one to rethink.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 05-18-2014, 03:02 PM
tbeltrans tbeltrans is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Twin Cities
Posts: 8,085
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonPR View Post
Sorry, I saw something about a ukelele priced at $4500 and I automatically switched off...
Yes, I could not believe it either. However, this is the only uke I have encountered that does not have that (to me) irritating midrange twang, and it really is a work of art.

Funny, after recovering from my initial shock, I realized that my attitude toward ukes is the very same thing I have commented on/complained about with regard to people's attitudes toward the cost of a decent acoustic guitar vs what a really decent violin can cost. It is fine, seemingly to most people I have encountered, that a decent violin might cost well upward of $50k and people just figure a decent violin should cost that much, but pay $10k for a decent acoustic and you must be either sick or badly misguided (to put it politely) - not so much around the small niche of people in this forum, but in the overall population in general.

Anyway, for me it was a straight across trade for a guitar I bought back in the mid-90s with some bonus money that I no longer use.It was a win-win for me and the shop, which is the way I like things to end up. I have no intention of either selling this uke in the future (i.e. resale is not a concern for me as a number of threads seem to indicate it is for many) or buying another, or buying uke learning materials either. It is what it is. After reading more about ukes on the net, I am realizing that paying a few thousand for a good uke is not at all uncommon, just like paying $10k for a decent guitar. A decent uke isn't for everybody, just as a high end acoustic guitar isn't either, as many threads in these forums have clearly indicated. I will enjoy playing this uke for many years to come.

Tony
__________________
“The guitar is a wonderful thing which is understood by few.”
— Franz Schubert

"Alexa, where's my stuff?"
- Anxiously waiting...

Last edited by tbeltrans; 05-18-2014 at 03:33 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 05-18-2014, 03:13 PM
tbeltrans tbeltrans is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Twin Cities
Posts: 8,085
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by EllaMom View Post
I'm really intrigued by this discussion, for a couple of reasons:

1. My cousin hand built a ukulele for his sister, which his niece (his sister's daughter) then gave to her mom on Mother's Day. The mom is having a blast! She learned guitar as a kid, but didn't keep up with it. The ukulele is lighting her fire, so to speak.

2. I am a relative newbie to guitar. And I'm one of those who really REALLY wants to figure out the fretboard. But I'm trying to do so 'in theory' more than 'in practice.' Oh, don't get me wrong, I practice every day. But I'm obsessed with figure out WHY rather than HOW. Funny....my mom always told me the first two words out of my mouth were "No!" and "Why?"

Anyway, as I started down this path of learning guitar, from the get-go I've always said I want to learn fingerstyle. No interest in strumming chords, and no interest in singing. Now you've got me wondering whether I should have started with a ukulele, since it sounds like it's much easier to 'find' the melody on it compared to a guitar.

For now, I'll stick with guitar, but I have to admit....you've got me wondering!

Thanks.
I think you should do whatever you feel the need to do. The problem as I see it is that when you are starting out, you will really not know what the best course of learning is for you. You can enlist a teacher, and maybe find one that is right for you - or not. You can go it alone as I did. I taught myself to read music standard notation and theory, as well as spending time figuring out tunes off recordings. Being able to read standard notation and charts helped me get work in bands. Learning music by ear got me into playing Leo Kottke tunes well before there were published transcriptions. So it wasn't lost time. But more recently, I have begun to regret that I did not focus much, much more on the ear for reasons I have mentioned around here in other threads.

To me, the uke is a fun thing to learn, but it is not a substitute for the guitar. Going to the uke after having real experience playing guitar can help get a new perspective on the guitar, I am sure (just as going to the keyboard or any other instrument for a while) and then coming back. The uke, being limited to 4 strings and, at least for the traditional tuning, having a high G, followed by a lower C and then the E and A is quite different from guitar and can cause you to not rely on motor memory. That is a good thing if your intention is to gain new perspective.

I don't see the uke as a way to prepare to learn to play guitar. If I could approach the guitar again fresh, knowing what I know now, I would probably want an approach more like what I have read the Suzuki method does - learn by ear first and then later learn to read. Or, as I am now doing with the uke, just play around on the fretboard, figuring out the sounds and melodies I hear all around me, learn some basic diatonic theory, learn where the notes are on the fretboard and how to apply the basic theory to create reasonable sounding harmony and accompaniment (i.e. arranging). I don't know if anybody teaches like that or not, so I can't comment on that, but in hindsight, for where I want to go musically, that would be just the ticket.

Tony
__________________
“The guitar is a wonderful thing which is understood by few.”
— Franz Schubert

"Alexa, where's my stuff?"
- Anxiously waiting...
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 05-18-2014, 03:14 PM
tbeltrans tbeltrans is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Twin Cities
Posts: 8,085
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by M19 View Post
It's done.
Thanks! This sub-forum makes more sense for a thread like this.

Tony
__________________
“The guitar is a wonderful thing which is understood by few.”
— Franz Schubert

"Alexa, where's my stuff?"
- Anxiously waiting...
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 05-18-2014, 03:26 PM
tbeltrans tbeltrans is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Twin Cities
Posts: 8,085
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Earl49 View Post
Tony, I have been playing guitar for 45 years, first learning cowboy chords from Dad as a kid. Then in the 80's I took up fingerstyle fairly seriously. I started learning Piedmont blues and ragtime tunes by using tab books and Stefan Grossman records, and later from Homespun tapes. I took up ukulele after a music camp in Hawaii where I was shown the similarities to guitar. Low G uke is basically the same thing as guitar, but tuned up a fifth. I mostly play it strummed, but I am also fingerpicking it quite a bit, based on the patterns and some licks that I already know from guitar. People always smile when I do "Stairway to Heaven" on the uke.

But lately, I have been trying to learn your way and become a more complete player. Ukulele has a lot of potential to break you out the rut, since the familiar note patterns and chord shapes are different -- really more dissimilar than truly different, but not exactly the same, causing one to rethink.
I never paid any attention to the ukulele until one day about a year ago, I saw the owner of Willie's playing what turned out to be the uke I just got. He was spinning off a bunch of standards and pop tunes, clearly these were not memorized. Much of the time, when somebody plays a memorized arrangement, it sort of sounds like somebody reciting a poem rather than having an impromptu conversation as we all do every day. This guy's playing sound like conversation, but with recognizable melody. There was so much good music coming out of that uke, I just couldn't believe it. That was when I started wondering if maybe I should give it a shot. When I found that I could do a straight across deal for the one uke that sounded really nice to my ears (like a tenor uke, but without the midrange twang), I didn't hesitate. I hate selling stuff, whether it is cars, guitars, or whatever. I have never liked doing that, so this was an opportunity to turn a guitar into something that would be a long time keeper and no out of pocket action at all.

I think it would be cool to show up at open mics sometime down the road spinning off tunes that people know without having to memorize an arrangement because I have developed the ability to quickly come up with a melody just by humming it, and a supporting arrangement from a vocabulary I develop over time. "Everybody and his uncle" plays solo fingerstyle guitar now (though usually memorized arrangements), so doing something at least somewhat different would be a good thing. If I come up with an arrangement of a tune for solo fingerstyle on guitar, you can bet with certainty that at least 50 other people are already on Youtube doing the same thing. I have seen a lot of uke on Youtube, but nobody playing like this guy at Willie's, so that is my goal for now. Having a fine uke to do it on is a real treat too.

Tony
__________________
“The guitar is a wonderful thing which is understood by few.”
— Franz Schubert

"Alexa, where's my stuff?"
- Anxiously waiting...
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 05-18-2014, 04:28 PM
Luke_ Luke_ is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: PA, USA
Posts: 721
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Earl49 View Post
People always smile when I do "Stairway to Heaven" on the uke.

Me to! I play it in first position hbu?
__________________
Martin HD28E Retro
Seagull Maritime Mahogany
Alvarez Rd8c
Dean EABC5
Gretsch 9121
Lag TN100 Nylon
Recording King RO-10
Recording King RP-06

https://soundcloud.com/search?q=Smokerblacker
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 05-18-2014, 05:12 PM
tbeltrans tbeltrans is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Twin Cities
Posts: 8,085
Default

Do you guys play that whole Ami thing or strum through it, play fingerstyle melody and chords, ...? It would be fun to tackle. I can play the same part on the guitar that everybody else does, but never pursued it past that point.

Tony
__________________
“The guitar is a wonderful thing which is understood by few.”
— Franz Schubert

"Alexa, where's my stuff?"
- Anxiously waiting...
Reply With Quote
Reply

  The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > Other Musical Instruments

Thread Tools





All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:01 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, The Acoustic Guitar Forum
vB Ad Management by =RedTyger=