Ultrasound PRO250 -OR- Genz Benz Shen 150LT -OR- SWR California Blonde II

[Carbonius]

In my quest for a new setup, I am down to the 3 amps above. I am looking for some feedback on narrowing the search.

Primarily speaking; I want a good acoustic amp that also handles vocals well and can function as a mini PA. Most of the time, I will only be running a guitar through it, but in some settings I will also run my vocals through it (when no PA is available). For bigger venues, I need the amp to send a great signal to the PA and still provide me with good sound. I will also run electric guitars through it (after running through a POD) as well as a keyboards at times.

It MUST be loud enough to compete with a teenager on drums while still having quality sound.

I can not demo ANY of these amps in person. Being Canadian, I will end up paying a $850 to $1050 between these 3 after shipping, taxes & duty. So I really want to be sure.

What do you think??

Ultrasound PRO250 http://www.ultrasoundamps.com/image-viewer-pro250.html

SWR California Blonde II http://www.swramps.com/en-CA/product...tno=4460000010

Genz Benz SHEN 150LT http://www.genzbenz.com/?fa=detail&m...sid=420&cid=94



More specifically speaking; For about half the time, I will be running a hybrid guitar (electric guitar with a piezo bridge) into the amp.

I will run the piezo signal 1st through a Fishman Aura pedal, then into a POD HD500. The signal will pass through with no amps simulators or cabinet simulators. I will primarily add compression, some eq and reverb/delay. I could run it direct to the amp, but I want to add various effects to the signal and also use the looper function.

The magnetic pickups will also run into the HD500, but along their own signal path (you can have 2 completely independent tones run through the HD500). I will of course runs amp and cabinet simulators and what have you.

Then I will either sum the 2 tones within the HD500 and have them go into one channel of the amp, or run them to separate channels and add my voice to one of the channels (each amp facilitates 2 inputs on at least one channel).

I also have some acoustic electrics that I will play when I do not require any electric tones. I will probably still run the signal through the Aura then to the amp.

The Shen 150LT and SWR Blonde II are both 150 Watts RMS and feature a 12" with a tweeter. The PRO250 is 250 Watts RMS with a 10", a 4" and a tweeter.



FYI: The Fishman Loudbox Artist was in the list but I have removed it as it has an 8" speaker and 120 watts RMS. From what I have read here, 8" speakers don't produce vocals as well. I also didn't think that it would compete with a teenage drummer!

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by Carbonius

...FYI: The Fishman Loudbox Artist was in the list but I have removed it as it has an 8" speaker and 120 watts RMS. From what I have read here, 8" speakers don't produce vocals as well. I also didn't think that it would compete with a teenage drummer!

Hi Carbonius...

I have a suggestion, give Greg at UltraSound a call and ask him your questions about the hybrid through the UltraSound. He is the inventor of the amp, and is accessible by phone, and loves to chat with potential (and existing) customers.

Dean Markley bought the company, and left all the techs, builders etc intact, so it's the same company as always. A recent call to him steered my purchase decisions concerning an amp for my retirement.

For what it's worth, you may be right about the 8'' speaker and vocals if compared to a 10'', though I use an amp with dual 8'' coax speakers to sing through all the time and they sound fine. My gigging partner uses an amp with a 12'' woofer (he's a bassist as well as guitarist) and my vocals are equal to his in quality and projection. He's using an SWR Blonde...

The amps with 6'' or 6.5'' though the vocals really begin to suffer.

If you are competing with (or keeping up with) drums, the California Blonde with the 12'' and horn are a great little rig, in that the 12'' woofer does have some 'umph' that others may not. I've been playing next to one 'live' for the past 9 years with my gigging partner, and we've done coffee houses, restaurants, churches, weddings, funerals etc. It is a very rugged and versatile amp.

[Carbonius]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

Hi Carbonius...

I have a suggestion, give Greg at UltraSound a call and ask him your questions about the hybrid through the UltraSound. He is the inventor of the amp, and is accessible by phone, and loves to chat with potential (and existing) customers.

Dean Markley bought the company, and left all the techs, builders etc intact, so it's the same company as always. A recent call to him steered my purchase decisions concerning an amp for my retirement.

For what it's worth, you may be right about the 8'' speaker and vocals if compared to a 10'', though I use an amp with dual 8'' coax speakers to sing through all the time and they sound fine. My gigging partner uses an amp with a 12'' woofer (he's a bassist as well as guitarist) and my vocals are equal to his in quality and projection. He's using an SWR Blonde...

The amps with 6'' or 6.5'' though the vocals really begin to suffer.

If you are competing with (or keeping up with) drums, the California Blonde with the 12'' and horn are a great little rig, in that the 12'' woofer does have some 'umph' that others may not. I've been playing next to one 'live' for the past 9 years with my gigging partner, and we've done coffee houses, restaurants, churches, weddings, funerals etc. It is a very rugged and versatile amp.

Thanks for the suggestion Larry. I just sent an email off to Ultrasound.

Perhaps your amp sounds fuller due to the dual 8's and as such, a bigger cabinet. Ampeg makes some bass cabinets with 4x8" and also 8x8" which sound great due to the cabinet size and tuning.

I really like what I have read about the PRO250. I have read every manual and review and watched every video I could get my eyes on. The headroom it offers, 250 watts at 39 pounds is something else! My 160 watt bass amp is just enough at times without clipping... with drummers around!

Don't get me wrong, I LOVE the drums... I just need to be able to hear myself!

[Carbonius]

You know what's weird?? When you can talk to the builder of an amp the same day you call.

WW!!

Greg over at Ultrasound was great! The email failed so I called and left a message. He got back to me within the hour... and I am in Canada! Apparently Greg gets a lot of calls from Canada. He is working on distribution here.

He answered all of my questions and then some.

Of great interest to me was that channel 2 of the PR250 was designed to act like a PA. When the eq is flat the signal is flat. The eq adjustments are more like a PA. Channel 1 was designed for acoustic guitar and as such has the additional tone shaping controls. Plus, the eq is optimized for acoustic guitars. When the controls are flat it is much like channel 2.

Another really cool thing about the amp is the 3 XLR outs on the back. No I know that most amps in this price range have this but there is one things that most don't have. All outputs are post eq AND post effect; channel 1, channel 2 & channel 1+2. If I have chorus, flanger or auto-wah on the guitar on stage, I want those effects coming out of PA.

So in essence, this can act as a 3 channel PA. I could even get a mini-mixing board and run the signal into channel 2. It also has a stereo-in jack on the back for mp3 player, or another instrument with a separate volume control. So I guess it is actually a 4 channel mini PA. I am just realizing that this is a great place to plug in a stereo signal from the POD HD500.

Thanks again Larry for suggesting the phone call!

[leeasam]

I have played through the smaller Ultrasounds and they sound nice but have heard issues on the DI in these. Have not payed the model you list so I can not really say anything. I have played through this Genz Benz model and LOVE it. With Taylors at least it sounds sweet. plenty of punch and volume if needed. Great features and both channles are identical. DI one can run 3 different DI signals. I am thinking of getting one some time.

[Carbonius]

Originally Posted by leeasam

I have played through the smaller Ultrasounds and they sound nice but have heard issues on the DI in these. Have not payed the model you list so I can not really say anything. I have played through this Genz Benz model and LOVE it. With Taylors at least it sounds sweet. plenty of punch and volume if needed. Great features and both channles are identical. DI one can run 3 different DI signals. I am thinking of getting one some time.

Hi Leesam, what sort of issues are we talking about?? I would really like to know as I am looking to purchase this weekend. There are some great internet deals for Father's day.

I must admit, I am rather torn between the Shen 150LT and the PRO250. I have heard that the PRO250 is more transparent and it certainly has more power. But then the Shen 150LT has a 12" speaker, it's lighter... and it's a bit cheaper. I don't like the tweeter volume on the Shen 150LT as it's on/-6DB/off. Why not just have a normal rotary attenuator?? I guess if it bugs me enough I could modify it. I do like the sweepable mids on both channels though.

AHHHHHHHHHHH!!! Difficult decisions that are only heightened by the fact that I must buy it to hear it.

Is 150 watts RMS through a 12" speaker going to get me over drums??

[brokenpretzel]

i had the genz 150 and thought it was a great amp. I play 7 string acoustic and it was one of the few that could really hold my low g. it is only 26 lbs and is quite versatile.
i did play it with drums but not slamming loud drums.
it seems that the comparison though may be between the 250 and a larger genz amp like the Shen 300 LT or Shen Pro

www.roberttemplemusic.com
www.youtube.com/brokenpretzel

[Carbonius]

Originally Posted by brokenpretzel

i had the genz 150 and thought it was a great amp. I play 7 string acoustic and it was one of the few that could really hold my low g. it is only 26 lbs and is quite versatile.
i did play it with drums but not slamming loud drums.
it seems that the comparison though may be between the 250 and a larger genz amp like the Shen 300 LT or Shen Pro

I hadn't considered the 300LT or Pro as they were more than I wanted to spend. I like that it they both have stereo aux inputs, as that has become a need for me. I am sure the Pro's tube sounds warmer than most amps. The stereo output abilities of the 300LT is something else, as is the 4 band eq with dual sweepable mids and the ability to run 2 effects per channel. As per usual though, the wattage ratings are a bit misleading until you read the manual.

The Pro is only 175 watts RMS until you hook up and additional 8 ohm cabinet. Mind you, 175 should be enough power, but it is shy of the Ultrasounds 250 watts RMS and is more money.

The 300LT is 200 watts RMS until you hook up an additional STEREO cabinet or 2 separate 8 ohm cabinets (one per side). This open the possibility of it truly functioning like a small PA with the amp in the center and 2 additional cabs, 1 on the right and 1 on the left. This feature now has me thinking as I was considering buying a small PA for other purposes. With this ability I could buy a mini-mixing board and run it into the AUX... hmmmmmmmmmmmm

I find their wattage listing inconsistent, when you consider that the Shen 150LT is listed for what it is, 150 watts RMS. Hook up an additional 8 ohm cabinet and you have 200 Watts RMS. But all is explained in the manuals

Thank you for the input!

[DLeeWebb]

I own an Ultrasound Pro250. I think that it would suit your needs, as described, quite well. It is an unbelievably transparent amp. When I use it with different guitars each guitar maintains its characteristic sound. That's what I was looking for in an acoustic amp. It is much more amp than I need personally, but it has the beautiful sound of the smaller Ultrasound amps. (I have a good friend who bought a DS4 at the same time that I bought my Pro250...from Shoreline) I am very pleased with it and will probably have it for the rest of my life. The only possible negative to me is that it is heavy. I don't carry it around all that much so its weight is not really an issue for me. (I have a Mesa Boogie Mark V electric guitar amp, which is twice as heavy...so it's all relative...) I did a lot of research on acoustic amps before I bought it, and I also talked to Ultrasound at the time. (I bought it almost exactly two years ago...) I don't think that you would be disappointed with a Pro250, or any Ultrasound amp for that matter...

[lschwart]

I think you'll be happy with any of the three amps. My own bias is for the extra forcefulness of the 12" speakers in the Genz Benz and the SWR, expecially for vocals, but YMMV. The Cali Blonde is fairly heavy amp, so keep that in mind.

I think that the way the Genz Benz amps can take a passive extension speaker so easily is a big plus, if you're looking for the amp to work sometimes as a small PA. I also prefer the sweepable mid to the shape switch on the Ultrasounds.

Don't be mislead, also, by the wattage differences. These are all amps that will get more than loud enough for your application and sound very good at those loud volumes. There are others around here who understand these things better than I do from a technical stand-point, but I do know from reading and my own experience that wattage is not the only thing that makes an amp loud.

I ended buying a Shen ProLT a few years ago after trying out a lot of different amps in this price range and a little above. It's similar to the 150LT, but with a better speaker and a few more features. It's a superb acoustic amp, but there's nothing at all wrong with the others you're considering.

Louis

[Carbonius]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

Hi Carbonius...
For what it's worth, you may be right about the 8'' speaker and vocals if compared to a 10'', though I use an amp with dual 8'' coax speakers to sing through all the time and they sound fine. My gigging partner uses an amp with a 12'' woofer (he's a bassist as well as guitarist) and my vocals are equal to his in quality and projection. He's using an SWR Blonde...

Originally Posted by lschwart

Don't be mislead, also, by the wattage differences. These are all amps that will get more than loud enough for your application and sound very good at those loud volumes. There are others around here who understand these things better than I do from a technical stand-point, but I do know from reading and my own experience that wattage is not the only thing that makes an amp loud.
Louis

Larry, the 2 8's being loud enough for most of your situations now makes perfect sense to me. I just read an article that stated the following;

"If you want to make your 50 watt amp move four times more air ... and appear to be a lot louder, just double the speaker radiating area. That means that changing from a 1 x 12 cabinet to a 2 x 12 cabinet will do the trick, as an example."

Also this; "If you want more loudness out of a 50 watt amp, double your speaker area, or go with a more efficient speaker. Going from a 83db speaker to an 88db speaker, is almost the same gain in volume as going from 50 watts to 200 watts in amp power."

So that has me thinking a lot differently. I also read the going from 50 watts to 100 watts increases things by 3db (seems to me Larry that you cited this fact in another post somewhere on AGF)

So for me to sweat over 150 watts is quite silly. It is only 6db louder than 50. It is more clean headroom though. Total speaker area for 2x8" is 100.48" while the area of 1x12" is 113.04". Very little difference means that your 2x8 50 watts can probably hold it's own next to a 1x12 150 watt

If you are interested in the article, you can read it here http://www.guitaramplifierblueprinti...fferences.html

Thanks Louis, It paid for me to do some more reading.

I actually got to try an Cali Blonde II today with a K&K equipped guitar. There was almost no difference between the guitar unamplified and amplified. I could have got it closer if I had tweaked more but, I was quite convinced by what I heard.

This was also my first time trying a K&K. Larry, I know that you love the K&K and now I see why. I was in Peter Sawchyn's new guitar shop. He has been building guitar (and other stringed instruments) for about 30 years now. He installs K&K in all his guitars and will install them on my existing guitars. His all hand made custom guitars sound great. He also offers hand carving on them (I saw some nice heel carving on one). His prices were VERY reasonable. If interested see Sawchyn here http://www.sawchyn.com/

[lschwart]

No problem! I hope you get to try a few more amps, but the Cali Blonde is a good one--if you don't mind carrying all that weight around.....

Enjoy the rest of your shopping process and let us know what you finally choose!

Louis

[buzzardwhiskey]

What Louis has written is very well thought out. If your acoustic amp is going to do vocals, I'd go with the Genz over the Ultrasound.

[jomaynor]

Originally Posted by Carbonius

Is 150 watts RMS through a 12" speaker going to get me over drums??

Without a PA? The way you imply how the "teenage drummer" plays, no. But that's not the fault of the amp.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by Carbonius

...I actually got to try an Cali Blonde II today with a K&K equipped guitar. There was almost no difference between the guitar unamplified and amplified. I could have got it closer if I had tweaked more but, I was quite convinced by what I heard.

This was also my first time trying a K&K. Larry, I know that you love the K&K and now I see why. I was in Peter Sawchyn's new guitar shop. He has been building guitar (and other stringed instruments) for about 30 years now. He installs K&K in all his guitars and will install them on my existing guitars....

Hi Carbonius...

Glad you got to check out both a K&K and a California Blonde amp. I think it's definitely a work horse amp, and will do a great job. My gigging partner has had over 10 years of service from his.

My love of K&K is a lot like my love for my wife of 42 years, it is not hidden...

If I were a bassist and guitarist, then an amp with at least a 12'' woofer would be an obvious choice, but as I'm merely a guitarist, the Dual 8'' coax speakers have served me well. And the fact that when I set it up on a keyboard X-stand behind me about 3-5 feet it can get so loud I cannot stay in the room with it, tells me it's good enough drive. Stage volume being adequate to reach out and touch the room dictates whether we use our amps as PA/monitors, or whether we move up to a full PA system.

Also, my amp only weighs 25 pounds, versus 51 pounds for the California Blonde, or 37 of the GenzBenz ProLT (which is really the model which compares with the California Blonde).

After a surgery a few years back, I have a limit of 40 pounds I'm supposed to lift, so that made certain choices easy for me.

When the room gets too big for just our amps, and it does occasionally, we move up to a small PA with 12'' two way speakers, and boost them up with a pole-stand about 6-8 feet in the air behind us and it will fill the room. The PA has 800 watts of power so it easily brings our levels up to where they need to be. Big step up in power and allows us to fill rooms without straining the equipment.

And what I probably shared about power amps is that to double the volume of 50 watts you have to move up to 500 watts. How efficient the speakers are also factor into the mix, and the speakers in the UltraSounds are very efficient and responsive.

Hope you find the amp you love...please keep us posted on your choices.